Are we wasting our time with whirlpool/hopstands?

hoppyscotty · Aug 20, 2024

Seen a few things recently about commercial breweries not doing whirlpool/hopstands...at least not in the same way as us home brewers do. Us home brewers lower our kettle temp to 80 degrees or lower before adding the hops and steeping for a period of time. However it turns out that alot of commercial breweries, though they may do some steep time, they dont tend to bother reducing temp to 80 degrees or lower. They just turn off the heat at the end of the boil and chuck in the hops for steeping...and in the case of large capacity breweries were it might take some time to empty the kettle they might not do any steep time at all due to the high transfer time giving the hops plenty of steep time. Apparently adding the hops at the higher temp doesnt pull any significant IBU's and still imparts the aromatics and flavours that you're after in a hopstand/flameout addition. Just curious as it would simplify and reduce the time of a brewday.

I looked to Brulosophy to see if they had done an exbeeriment on it. They do have an exbeeriment on hopstand time and it turns out the hopstand time made no noticeable difference to the flavour of the resulting beer, but that was still at a reduced steep temperature.

And saw a recent vid with Malt Miller and Track and they were not bothering with the whirlpool addition at all and instead using the hop dipping method where you add hops to the fermenter and transfer a portion your wort at post boil temps onto the hops at a higher temperature, before turning on the chiller and transferring cooled wort on top, though in this case they were using a liquid hop extract instead of actual hops.

Anyone experimented with this? I must admit I have one the years varied the hopstand/whirlpool steep time and cant say I've noticed any difference.

Stu's Brews · Aug 20, 2024

I haven't experimented with it but I know it takes me 4-5 minutes to cool wort from 100degC to 80degC using a counterflow chiller. If I add my whirlpool hops in before I start chilling then I would definitely expect some isomerisation, whether it is enough to significantly change the subjective impression of the beer I can't say.

At Hook Norton last week, we cooled the wort to 80degC before adding the hops. They were convinced this results in less bitterness.

Stu · Aug 20, 2024

I throw my hops in a couple of minutes after the end of the boil. Don't bother waiting for it to cool. Found no noticeable difference.

MashBag · Aug 20, 2024

I leave the lid off for 10mins, with the pump running which gets to 85c. And then chucj the pellets in the spider with the rest for 30 mins...while I have breakfast

Hazelwood Brewery · Aug 20, 2024

hoppyscotty said:
Seen a few things recently about commercial breweries not doing whirlpool/hopstands...at least not in the same way as us home brewers do. Us home brewers lower our kettle temp to 80 degrees or lower before adding the hops and steeping for a period of time. However it turns out that alot of commercial breweries, though they may do some steep time, they dont tend to bother reducing temp to 80 degrees or lower. They just turn off the heat at the end of the boil and chuck in the hops for steeping...and in the case of large capacity breweries were it might take some time to empty the kettle they might not do any steep time at all due to the high transfer time giving the hops plenty of steep time. Apparently adding the hops at the higher temp doesnt pull any significant IBU's and still imparts the aromatics and flavours that you're after in a hopstand/flameout addition. Just curious as it would simplify and reduce the time of a brewday.

I looked to Brulosophy to see if they had done an exbeeriment on it. They do have an exbeeriment on hopstand time and it turns out the hopstand time made no noticeable difference to the flavour of the resulting beer, but that was still at a reduced steep temperature.

And saw a recent vid with Malt Miller and Track and they were not bothering with the whirlpool addition at all and instead using the hop dipping method where you add hops to the fermenter and transfer a portion your wort at post boil temps onto the hops at a higher temperature, before turning on the chiller and transferring cooled wort on top, though in this case they were using a liquid hop extract instead of actual hops.

Anyone experimented with this? I must admit I have one the years varied the hopstand/whirlpool steep time and cant say I've noticed any difference.

I find a hopstand does add flavour (and maybe a little aroma but you really want keg hopping for aroma). Here are a couple of short extracts from Scott Janish’s book The New IPA showing the result of both lab results and sensory feedback. The second of the two extracts relates to the duration of the hopstand and the gain.

MashBag · Aug 20, 2024

I give 'em about 30 mins, what is everyone else doing?

Hazelwood Brewery · Aug 20, 2024

MashBag said:
I give 'em about 30 mins, what is everyone else doing?

My longest is 90 minutes but many of my recipes are currently 30 minutes.

dmtaylor · Aug 20, 2024

Based on something I heard on a podcast somewhere (I listen to like 8 different ones), a hop stand for 20 minutes was apparently better in aroma and flavor than for 30 or 40 minutes. This was based on some experimentation at the standard 80-ish Celsius. That being said, I did hop stands at 30 to 40 minutes on my last couple of batches and I was pleased with the results.

Isomerization is absolutely significant at 80 C, and much moreso at 90-100 C. You can't just ignore the reality of chemical reactions -- the chemicals don't care what we think, and if you disagree then admit also that your palate might be imprecise.

Sadfield · Aug 20, 2024

Most of what I brew these days is British or Belgian in character. So, it's a flame out addition and straight to cooling. Hops should be on an equal billing with malt and yeast aromas, not dominating them.

Anything else is more early US craft inspired, where a 20' steep at sub 80°C will suffice.

A cavaet to all this is, I find layering hops throughout the process returns better results and less one dimensional beers. Whilst it won't satisfy the haze bros, it's telling that SN Pale ale has dominated the American craft market for 43 years without steeping or dry hopping. Just hops throughout the 90 minute boil.

Hazelwood Brewery · Aug 20, 2024

Sadfield said:
Most of what I brew these days is British or Belgian in character. So, it's a flame out addition and straight to cooling. Hops should be on an equal billing with malt and yeast aromas, not dominating them.

Anything else is more early US craft inspired, where a 20' steep at sub 80°C will suffice.

A cavaet to all this is, I find layering hops throughout the process returns better results and less one dimensional beers. Whilst it won't satisfy the haze bros, it's telling that SN Pale ale has dominated the American craft market for 43 years without steeping or dry hopping. Just hops throughout the 90 minute boil.

SN is a good clean beer, one to recalibrate your taste buds.

Sadfield · Aug 20, 2024

Hazelwood Brewery said:
SN is a good clean beer, one to recalibrate your taste buds.

So true. I always forget how amber it is.

Hazelwood Brewery · Aug 20, 2024

Sadfield said:
So true. I always forget how amber it is.

That’s true too!

.Peter. · Aug 21, 2024

Hazelwood Brewery said:
I find a hopstand does add flavour (and maybe a little aroma but you really want keg hopping for aroma). Here are a couple of short extracts from Scott Janish’s book The New IPA showing the result of both lab results and sensory feedback. The second of the two extracts relates to the duration of the hopstand and the gain.

View attachment 103085

Going on that 90C seems the middle ground

Hazelwood Brewery · Aug 21, 2024

.Peter. said:
Going on that 90C seems the middle ground

If you do a 90C hopstand you’ll need to adjust your bittering addition.

A 90C hopstand will give you half the bitterness you’d get in a boil of the same duration.

.Peter. · Aug 21, 2024

Hazelwood Brewery said:
If you do a 90C hopstand you’ll need to adjust your bittering addition.

A 90C hopstand will give you half the bitterness you’d get in a boil of the same duration.

Ah ok

jof · Aug 21, 2024

Mine go in at flame out for between 5 and 10 minutes.
Then I drain wort to FV to overnight chill while it's still hot.

Vinylwasp · Aug 21, 2024

hoppyscotty said:
Seen a few things recently about commercial breweries not doing whirlpool/hopstands...at least not in the same way as us home brewers do. Us home brewers lower our kettle temp to 80 degrees or lower before adding the hops and steeping for a period of time. However it turns out that alot of commercial breweries, though they may do some steep time, they dont tend to bother reducing temp to 80 degrees or lower. They just turn off the heat at the end of the boil and chuck in the hops for steeping...and in the case of large capacity breweries were it might take some time to empty the kettle they might not do any steep time at all due to the high transfer time giving the hops plenty of steep time. Apparently adding the hops at the higher temp doesnt pull any significant IBU's and still imparts the aromatics and flavours that you're after in a hopstand/flameout addition. Just curious as it would simplify and reduce the time of a brewday.

I looked to Brulosophy to see if they had done an exbeeriment on it. They do have an exbeeriment on hopstand time and it turns out the hopstand time made no noticeable difference to the flavour of the resulting beer, but that was still at a reduced steep temperature.

And saw a recent vid with Malt Miller and Track and they were not bothering with the whirlpool addition at all and instead using the hop dipping method where you add hops to the fermenter and transfer a portion your wort at post boil temps onto the hops at a higher temperature, before turning on the chiller and transferring cooled wort on top, though in this case they were using a liquid hop extract instead of actual hops.

Anyone experimented with this? I must admit I have one the years varied the hopstand/whirlpool steep time and cant say I've noticed any difference.

I haven't done any back to back brews to test this, but there's a long detailed explanation from Scot Janish here -> Unpacking Hot Side Hop Flavour in the section 'Oxygen-Containing Monoterpene Alcohols', and a shorter anecdotal comparison of the results from one of the brewers at Yakima Chief here: Homebrewing with Cryo Hops though it's interesting that in all 3 of the recipes they've appended to their Survivable Compounds Handbook they've started the whirlpool at 96C.

From all of these it's pretty clear that different hops behave differently too depending on the concentrations of the various compounds they have to begin with so if you were going to do a back to back you'd want to use a hop from the left side of the Yakima Survivables table that is known to work well in the whirlpool and then test that at 96 and 82.

An Ankoù · Aug 21, 2024

I prefer a hop stand to dry hopping. Sure the fermentation carries away some of the aromatics, but I still find it beneficial. Typically, I might do a 5 minute addition or a flameout addition and then chill the wort to just under 80C before adding the "whirlpool" charge. In fact the wort is probably nearer to 75C by the time I've hobbled over to the tap to turn off the water in the immersion chiller. The hops steep for 20 minutes or so before turning on the chiller again and bringing the wort to pitching temperature. It works for me.

MashBag · Aug 21, 2024

An Ankoù said:
I prefer a hop stand to dry hopping.

So do I. By a long way.

malhal · Aug 21, 2024

It depends on the style you are trying to brew. E.g. If brewing a clear IPA then do a hopstand at flameout temps of around 100-90C and then chill fast, this gets the hop oils in and the proteins out. If brewing a hazy IPA then do the hopstand below 80C and the hop oils bind with the cold break proteins making haze and if you have no yeast lag in the fermenter you should get permanent haze. Essentially this is doing a slow chill on purpose which normally would be avoided by commercial breweries because of risk of contamination. So instead they might try to make some fake haze, e.g. by adding flour.

Are we wasting our time with whirlpool/hopstands?

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