The downfall of the Tory party.

[Chippy_Tea]

Can they be any worse, it's obvious the other 2 don't work

Its been 14 years since one of them has had a chance to prove they can change things for the better you need to stop looking back and look forward instead.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Its been 14 years since one of them has had a chance to prove they can change things for the better you need to stop looking back and look forward instead.

I am, i am voting reform the other 2 have had their chances, anyone who can't see this deserves everything they reap

 

[Agentgonzo]

I am, i am voting reform the other 2 have had their chances, anyone who can't see this deserves everything they reap

Apart from the cult of farage and "not being Labour", what are you actually voting for? Last time we had elections, the BNP reform party didn't actually have any policies or manifesto.

 

[Rodcx500z]

What has the BNP got to do with it' last time Nick Green came here he got his f--king car turned over and run out of town, when you get to a point were you are deemed being racist for having an opinion, ordinary people frightened to say what they think there is some thing wrong with society as we know it, I will say they ain't all bad you know

 

[foxy]

People are already moving their pension pots to places like Cyprus and Italy were they pay a lot less tax, some are moving their kids out of private schools ahead of the 20%vat addition when labour abolish charitable status, all the money to fix things as to come from some were and it is not going to come from people on less than 30k. middle earners and upwards will be paying

I would also wonder where money is going to come from to fix the economy. I wonder if more VAT is planned by Labour? Can't see many more avenues open. Changing the party in power doesn't change the economy.

 

[JockyBrewer]

I would also wonder where money is going to come from to fix the economy. I wonder if more VAT is planned by Labour? Can't see many more avenues open. Changing the party in power doesn't change the economy.

Growth would help. The Conservatives have serially undermined growth through a series of pratfalls.

It started with ‘Austerity’. Cutting everything we can from public services, money which almost 100% goes to low to moderate pay workers who spend it all, paying tax.

While it did cut spending, it severely hampered growth as a result. What was cut was things like social services has ended up putting more pressure on the NHS.

We could have gone the other way with fiscal stimulus like the US did, which had its problems, but led to growth.

Austerity led to the poorest areas being most affected, although what was blamed was… immigrants. It stoked the Eurosceptic nature of the country, leading to Brexit.

Brexit, a referendum and outcome so disastrously handled it beggars belief. We’re going to leave our position of privilege in the world’s largest trading bloc, because we want to sell more fish to Australia or something. Cue 4 years of messing around. 8 years on, will we ever see any benefits of it?

All of that left the country in a mess that meant that covid and the inflation caused by Russia’s invasion but extra hard.

So what has been the product of the last 14 years?

Have we built more houses (one of the biggest drivers of cost of living)? Nope. Only 1.3 million homes built since 2010, compared to 3 million in the 60s.

Are our schools better (education being the biggest driver of economic productivity and health)? Nope, RAC roofs falling in…

Basically I’m sick and tired of this government not thinking beyond the next week. They’re meant to be the economically smart and literate party, but I can’t see a positive thing they’ve done to address the country’s future. They’re just a bunch of incompetent old Etonians in it for themselves.

 

[Agentgonzo]

when you get to a point were you are deemed being racist for having an opinion...

Maybe if you've got to that point, you should consider the possibility that your opinions are racist in the first place.

If it quacks like a duck etc etc

 

[old dog new tricks]

Thanks to the 'party of fiscal responsibility' we currently have the highest tax burden since the second world war, failing NHS, failing local services...

Well I can stomach higher taxes if it actually makes a difference.
Many slated Scotland Government when they raised taxes yes it hurts but simple things like knowing my kids have a free bus pass, free eye tests and free prescriptions etc.
For me things like that are worth paying that fraction more tax.
But I do agree there should not be an attack on the middle classes, when there are still so many loopholes for the obscenely rich, I actually do not believe they should pay more tax I think it should platou out at say 40%, BUT no one should be exempt or have any loophole, you live or work here you pay tax full stop.
Who knows if we actually made tax levels tolerable some of the elite might actually pay what they are meant to but currently do not

 

[JockyBrewer]

Well I can stomach higher taxes if it actually makes a difference.

So can I, even as a higher rate payer.

My point was that I keep hearing that Labour “can’t be trusted with the economy”, but they can hardly be worse than what has been done to the economy for the past 14 years.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Growth would help. The Conservatives have serially undermined growth through a series of pratfalls.

It started with ‘Austerity’. Cutting everything we can from public services, money which almost 100% goes to low to moderate pay workers who spend it all, paying tax.

While it did cut spending, it severely hampered growth as a result. What was cut was things like social services has ended up putting more pressure on the NHS.

We could have gone the other way with fiscal stimulus like the US did, which had its problems, but led to growth.

Austerity led to the poorest areas being most affected, although what was blamed was… immigrants. It stoked the Eurosceptic nature of the country, leading to Brexit.

Brexit, a referendum and outcome so disastrously handled it beggars belief. We’re going to leave our position of privilege in the world’s largest trading bloc, because we want to sell more fish to Australia or something. Cue 4 years of messing around. 8 years on, will we ever see any benefits of it?

All of that left the country in a mess that meant that covid and the inflation caused by Russia’s invasion but extra hard.

So what has been the product of the last 14 years?

Have we built more houses (one of the biggest drivers of cost of living)? Nope. Only 1.3 million homes built since 2010, compared to 3 million in the 60s.

Are our schools better (education being the biggest driver of economic productivity and health)? Nope, RAC roofs falling in…

Basically I’m sick and tired of this government not thinking beyond the next week. They’re meant to be the economically smart and literate party, but I can’t see a positive thing they’ve done to address the country’s future. They’re just a bunch of incompetent old Etonians in it for themselves.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

i am voting reform the other 2 have had their chances, anyone who can't see this deserves everything they reap

This has been you mantra throughout the thread you wont take your blinkers off and allow yourself to believe after 14 years Labour may be able to sort this mess out so you will vote for Reform simply because they are the only party that could challenge why not vote for Lib Dem or the Green, as @An Ankoù asked above what are you actually voting for?

 

[old dog new tricks]

So can I, even as a higher rate payer.

My point was that I keep hearing that Labour “can’t be trusted with the economy”, but they can hardly be worse than what has been done to the economy for the past 14 years.

Totally agree Truss was the final straw as a civil servant I have seen this government destroy us drive a wedge between private sector and widen the gap between rich n poor. Frankly anyone or anything be better than these clowns.
Their record on everything is appalling the Thames Water scandal is just one of many I fear.
I genuinely think we should impose a 2 term rule on not just PM but ruling party to stop rot like this setting in.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I am voting for what i hope will be end of the dominance of Cons-Lab because it does not work and i hate the torys just as much as labour, we need a complete reset of politics in this country it's time for change

 

[Bosch]

I am voting for what i hope will be end of the dominance of Cons-Lab because it does not work and i hate the torys just as much as labour, we need a complete reset of politics in this country it's time for change

That is fair enough.
The labour and Conservative parties (like almost all political parties) are a broad coalition of interests and beliefs (look at people like Rory Stewart compared to Liz Truss, or Corbyn compared to Starmer).

Until/if the first past the post system is binned the chance of smaller parties forming a government in the UK are virtually nill.

 

[old dog new tricks]

I am voting for what i hope will be end of the dominance of Cons-Lab because it does not work and i hate the torys just as much as labour, we need a complete reset of politics in this country it's time for change

I fully respect Democracy and the right to vote and hold a differing opinion, but I'm all honesty unless the first past the post system is dropped, your aspirations will likely never be met and your vote will have little effect. The problem with Westminster politics is that the third party sold their soul for seat at the big table with the Tories, that was an utter shambles and will haunt the Lib Dems for generations to come.
So who in effect given the corrupt Westminster system will ever be a viable alternative to labour or conservative?

I agree UK politics needs a reset but unless the big 2 buy into this it will not happen.

At least with proportional representation all votes do count and do influence the balance within a parliament

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I am voting for what i hope will be end of the dominance of Cons-Lab because it does not work

Again you say it doesn't work Labour have had to wait 14 years to get a chance to try to make things better you and i do not know if it is possible but i am willing to give them a chance, you are voting for a new party with Nigel Farage basically running the show along with a guy kicked out of the tory party for refusing to apologise after alleging that London mayor Sadiq Khan was controlled by "Islamists" maybe you should vote Green at least they appear to be a squeaky clean

Look at their policies no different to any other party so i will ask how are this new party going to fund it?

The four policies it touts the most are lower taxes, net zero immigration, cheaper energy, and zero waiting lists.

So who is part of Reform UK, where did the party come from and what does it stand for?

Before that, the party was headed by Nigel Farage, before he stood aside in early 2021.

But he is still very much part of the movement, and there have been repeated questions about whether Mr Farage might stand to as a candidate under the Reform banner.

As recently as 3 January, Mr Tice said Mr Farage is still "assessing" what role he will play.

Mr Farage still wields power within the party, remaining as a director of Reform UK Party Limited, as well as the only person with significant control of the company, according to Companies House.

Former Conservative deputy chair Lee Anderson defected to Reform UK, becoming the party's first MP in the Commons.

He was kicked out of the parliamentary Conservative Party for refusing to apologise after alleging that London mayor Sadiq Khan was controlled by "Islamists".


Policies

The four policies it touts the most are lower taxes, net zero immigration, cheaper energy, and zero waiting lists.

Other policies include offering vouchers to go private if you can't see a GP in three days, scrapping interest on student loans, increasing police numbers, keeping "woke ideologies out of the classroom", abolishing the TV licence fee, reforming the Lords and reducing "wasteful spending".

It also wants the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights, use offshore processing centres for illegal immigrants and prevent them from claiming asylum.

On energy, the party wants to scrap net zero plans and instead increase drilling for gas and oil.

Full article - https://news.sky.com/story/who-is-t...ome-from-and-what-are-their-policies-13056985

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Until/if the first past the post system is binned the chance of smaller parties forming a government in the UK are virtually nill.

Spot on it needs to be changed and Labour have said -

Electoral reform is crucial to restoring trust in politics​

With conference already having made clear its unequivocal support for PR – and the party now united behind damning criticism of first past the post

https://labourlist.org/2023/10/elec...l-representation-fptp-labour-conference-2023/

 

[Rodcx500z]

I think this is going no were so, see you on election day

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I think this is going no were so, see you on election day

Its only going nowhere because you make these sweeping statement then when challenged you have no answers , what are you voting for what are Reform going to change and how do they intend to finance these changes?

I am voting for what i hope will be end of the dominance of Cons-Lab because it does not work

Again you say it doesn't work Labour have had to wait 14 years to get a chance to try to make things better you and i do not know if it is possible but i am willing to give them a chance, you are voting for a new party with Nigel Farage basically running the show along with a guy kicked out of the tory party for refusing to apologise after alleging that London mayor Sadiq Khan was controlled by "Islamists" maybe you should vote Green at least they appear to be a squeaky clean

Look at their policies no different to any other party so i will ask how are this new party going to fund it?

The four policies it touts the most are lower taxes, net zero immigration, cheaper energy, and zero waiting lists.

So who is part of Reform UK, where did the party come from and what does it stand for?

Before that, the party was headed by Nigel Farage, before he stood aside in early 2021.

But he is still very much part of the movement, and there have been repeated questions about whether Mr Farage might stand to as a candidate under the Reform banner.

As recently as 3 January, Mr Tice said Mr Farage is still "assessing" what role he will play.

Mr Farage still wields power within the party, remaining as a director of Reform UK Party Limited, as well as the only person with significant control of the company, according to Companies House.

Former Conservative deputy chair Lee Anderson defected to Reform UK, becoming the party's first MP in the Commons.

He was kicked out of the parliamentary Conservative Party for refusing to apologise after alleging that London mayor Sadiq Khan was controlled by "Islamists".


Policies

The four policies it touts the most are lower taxes, net zero immigration, cheaper energy, and zero waiting lists.

Other policies include offering vouchers to go private if you can't see a GP in three days, scrapping interest on student loans, increasing police numbers, keeping "woke ideologies out of the classroom", abolishing the TV licence fee, reforming the Lords and reducing "wasteful spending".

It also wants the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights, use offshore processing centres for illegal immigrants and prevent them from claiming asylum.

On energy, the party wants to scrap net zero plans and instead increase drilling for gas and oil.

Full article - https://news.sky.com/story/who-is-t...ome-from-and-what-are-their-policies-13056985

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Mr Farage still wields power within the party, remaining as a director of Reform UK Party Limited, as well as the only person with significant control of the company, according to Companies House.

This is actually the key bit - do Reform supporters not find it weird that Reform is a private company with Farage as the majority shareholder, it's not a party in the normal sense that you can join as a member. And if it doesn't have membership fees - where does the money come from? Russia? They've been funding other far-right parties in Europe, and Brexit was an explicit policy goal of Putin's advisor Aleksandr Dugin.

And Farage is just all talk. He knows that he can promise the world and never have to actually deliver it, that's why he disappeared after Brexit, he had no idea how to actually do Brexit. And you've seen how even hardcore Brexiteers like Davis and Rees-Mogg have struggled to actually make Brexit work, despite having all the power as Brexit Secretary. So if Rees-Mogg can't deliver on Brexit, how would Farage do better?

The Reform manifesto could promise that everyone who votes for them will sleep with Margot Robbie and gullible idiots would believe them. But it's never going to happen in the real world. It's all based on vastly inflated idea of how independent the UK government actually is. The ECHR is written into the Good Friday Agreement so the US and EU are never going to let us leave it - and nor should you want to, personally I quite like having human rights defended in law. And we've had a government stake its whole reputation on reducing immigration, and found that it's a difficult problem - what exactly is Farage going to do differently? He's the master of the glib soundbite, but he doesn't have any answers that would work in the real world - the likes of Patel and Braverman would have done them otherwise.

But Reform are Starmer's best friends - if anything guarantees that Starmer will have a huge majority that allows him to do whatever he wants, it's people voting for Reform instead of the Tories. So vote Reform and you don't get Farage, you get Starmer.