Help with DMS / Diacetyl

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Hey guys!

Please could I have some advice from you more experienced brewers?

I have only been brewing all-grain for less than a year, so am still learning. My question is, some of my beers seem to have the same taste. I can only describe it as very stale oranges, and I wondered if this is what DMS tastes / smells like? Would anyone be so kind as to describe what they think it tastes like? I don't get corn at all.

The reason I think it might be DMS is because I do a 30 minute boil for all my beers - I am starting to reconsider this now. Any thoughts? I appreciate there will be differences of opinion on this one.

Here are a couple of pictures of it - I thought I'd oxidised it at first, but now not so sure. The bad flavour does seem to be getting less over time, but the stale flavour is overpowering the hops quite a lot. It only has golden promise and caramunich malts in it, with 200g of citra and simcoe (combined).

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong please?

 

[Leon103]

First off DMS and diacetyl are two different things.

DMS I get sweet corn flavours, can't imagine stale oranges, isn't that a musky smell? Are you covering the lid during the boil? Are you getting a proper rolling boil?
Diacetyl is butterscotch, caramel flavour. I hate it in beer and seem to pick it out easy. This is down to poor fermentation.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

The husband's one is very buttery so that one is easy to diagnose, but this one not so much.

Yes it is a bit musty to be fair - almost like when you use kveik. The rolling boil I'm not sure either. Probably need to pay more attention there.

No we don't cover the lid, as that is a no-no obviously. I'm foxed.

 

[Clint]

Could the musty smell/taste be oxidation? Also like damp cardboard.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Nope Clint it's not cardboardy. I had a (still) cider go like that once what I stored in a 5L kilner jar (mistake) so I'm familiar with that smell and taste.

It was in a closed loop the whole time, which is why I think it might be either DMS or possibly some kind of infection. I do seem to be having some of my beers go much drier than expected, despite mashing at higher temperatures. But then I've made some which are perfect. It's so odd.

I'm obsessive with my cleaning and sanitising - I even PH test the sanitiser before I use it, and use the hand gel when required (dry hopping etc).

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I am just reading the online version of John Palmer's How to brew, and he mentions Acetaldehyde smelling like freshly cut pumpkin. This is the closest description I've found yet of what it smells like.

 

[Leon103]

You can still get oxidised beer with closed loop transfer. Make sure your process is correct. Maybe oxygen in the keg or it's not purged.

Or mould within some equipment

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Trying to do everything by the book but so frustrating when it doesn't work. Don't think mould is possible with my cleaning and sanitising routine. They don't get left to sit at all, that's just asking for trouble.

Will be even more careful with my next one. If it goes the same, I'm giving up.

 

[Mayor of Simpleton]

Where in the process do you first detect the off flavour. I can't really offer much advice but to suggest that next time you brew, taste at all points. Maybe that will give you some pointers

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Thanks MoS.

It's normally after carbonation and at serving. Don't normally taste before as it's unpleasant, but I'll start now.

 

[Clint]

If you give up you'll never find out. Perhaps you could try find a beer judge type person to tell you what's going on.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

If you give up you'll never find out. Perhaps you could try find a beer judge type person to tell you what's going on.

Perhaps I'll send HB one of my **** ones for analysis!

 

[Mayor of Simpleton]

Thanks MoS.

It's normally after carbonation and at serving. Don't normally taste before as it's unpleasant, but I'll start now.

I routinely taste all the way through from wort to straight out the FV. I have caught a couple of issues this way. As Clint says - don't give up. Work through it methodically and you will solve it

 

[Clint]

Have you used a different yeast such as a sour? With getting some drier beers I wonder if it is an effect of a different or wild yeast.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Yes I did Clint a few months ago, I used a philly sour yeast. But made some decent beers since then in amongst the **** lol

They do say that normal cleaning and sanitation is enough with that particular yeast, and you don't need to use separate fermenters etc.

Supposedly.

 

[Clint]

Before you brew next time mix your sanitising routine up...use some cheapo bleach too.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I can't get it for want of trying - we have some milton though.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

One thing I have noticed - when there's caramel malt in it, it tends to be worse. When I did the vienna lager there was none at all (honey malt though, is that the same?) and it turned out perfect.

 

[Clint]

That will be OK...soak everything...pipes,spoons etc.
Might be worth trying a one hour boil too even if its to sanitise your boiler...not that I think you don't! Bits of crud can get stuck anywhere.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Will definitely change to 1 hour boils now. Thank you.

Trust me when I say I do soak everything thoroughly. In PBW, then hot water, then chemsan. I couldn't be any cleaner unless I sterilised everything with bleach. Bloody beer-making! Takes my anxiety up a notch!