Wyeast splitting question

[ChrisPDuck]

hi all
Relatively new here and only really getting starte with all grain.
Made a handful of good batches on a grainfather now with dry yeast and would like to try liquid yeast but ouch the cost!

Looking at getting a few brews out of each Wyeast pack my plan was to.
Sterilise 4 jam jars (each with a 300ml capacity)
Make a 1.2l starter from DME with a 1.036 gravity
According to brewers friend that should take a 2 week old yeast with 87 billion cells up to 238 billion
Splitting that between the 4 jars should leave me with around 60 billion in each

Refrigerating then until I need them.
The 60 billion cells should produce almost 350 billion in a 2l starter with 1.036 assuming they remain 100% viable...

But there’s the question. How long can I keep these jars prepped in this way and how do I work out the viability over time.
(Assuming good hygiene of course)

Is there a better simple way?

 

[MyQul]

You can keep the jars in the fridge for months but you may need to step up (put the yeast into a smaller starter then 'step it up' to a bigger starter) the jar depending on how long you keep it in the fridge. There are calculators about that work out the viability over time for you

Overbuilding a starter is a popular and easy method. You would make a larger starter than you need, say 1.5L. Then when its fermented out, swill all the yeast into suspension and pour off 300ml into a jar. You use thw 1.2L to ferment the brew and the 300ml to make another starter with. In this way you can keep a strain going for ages. There are overbuild calculators such as this one
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

My personal favourite technique and the one I use mostly is; Collect as much of a yeast cake from the bottom of a brew in a jar , as you can. Put it in the fridge. Whenever you come to need some yeast, put a couple couple of teaspoons from the jar into a starter. Then pitch your yeast

 

[ChrisPDuck]

Thanks.
Will the refrigerated yeast cake last longer than a jar of chilled starter?
I guess I was to use ‘virgin’ yeast but how beneficial this is seems to differ depending on the source you read!

 

[MyQul]

Thanks.
Will the refrigerated yeast cake last longer than a jar of chilled starter?
I guess I was to use ‘virgin’ yeast but how beneficial this is seems to differ depending on the source you read!

It's all the same stuff so a starter would last about the same time in the fridge as a yeast cake.

 

[BeerCat]

I recently made a starter with 2 year old yeast and was fine.

 

[Ghillie]

Sterilise 4 jam jars (each with a 300ml capacity)
Make a 1.2l starter from DME with a 1.036 gravity
According to brewers friend that should take a 2 week old yeast with 87 billion cells up to 238 billion
Splitting that between the 4 jars should leave me with around 60 billion in each

Refrigerating then until I need them.
The 60 billion cells should produce almost 350 billion in a 2l starter with 1.036 assuming they remain 100% viable...

But there’s the question. How long can I keep these jars prepped in this way and how do I work out the viability over time.
(Assuming good hygiene of course)

Is there a better simple way?

You'd be better using the method outlined in the link provided my @MyQul.

Your method would mean the yeast is sat longer in the fridge between uses, which means more time losing viability. You'd probably end up having to make starters again come the third and forth jar. What's more is that trying to make 4 starters from 1200mL of wort will give you a poor inoculation rate which is not good for the yeast.

If you overbuild every time, you leave the smallest amount of time before going back to the jar in the fridge to overbuild it.

 

[trueblue]

I will make a 2lt starter which I will split into 6. Keep in the fridge and restart each brew with another 2lt starter. As I tend to brew every 2-3 weeks the last starter may be 3 months old but will still be fine with no extra build up.

 

[Drunkula]

Once you've cold crashed the yeast in the flask tip away the wort, add what's left to a 50% glycol solution, put that in the freezer for years. I split it into 25 and 35ml jars then use them to make a starter.

 

[Bigcol49]

Hi!
I prefer the method suggested by @MyQul.
Make a 2 litre starter, save 500ml in the fridge and use 1.5 litres in the brew.
I can't see any benefit of splitting the original pack of yeast, although it is a popular method.

 

[Ghillie]

I will make a 2lt starter which I will split into 6. Keep in the fridge and restart each brew with another 2lt starter. As I tend to brew every 2-3 weeks the last starter may be 3 months old but will still be fine with no extra build up.

This is not a good method.

If you split a typical ale starter (0.75million cells/ml) six ways - you'll be under pitching yeast, big time.

To pitch the proper population of yeast, you'd effectively need to make another starter from each of the six jars you initially made. It's a lot more work to meet the proper pitch rate vs overbuilding one starter each brew. You would also use more DME when you work through towards the older of the six jars due to degradation of yeast viability over time.

 

[trueblue]

This is not a good method.

If you split a typical ale starter (0.75million cells/ml) six ways - you'll be under pitching yeast, big time.

To pitch the proper population of yeast, you'd effectively need to make another starter from each of the six jars you initially made. It's a lot more work to meet the proper pitch rate vs overbuilding one starter each brew. You would also use more DME when you work through towards the older of the six jars due to degradation of yeast viability over time.

This is not a good method.

If you split a typical ale starter (0.75million cells/ml) six ways - you'll be under pitching yeast, big time.


To pitch the proper population of yeast, you'd effectively need to make another starter from each of the six jars you initially made. It's a lot more work to meet the proper pitch rate vs overbuilding one starter each brew. You would also use more DME when you work through towards the older of the six jars due to degradation of yeast viability over time.

I did state I make fresh starter every time I use one of the splits, normally 4 days before I intend to brew. Also 15 mins into the boil I will take 2lt of the wort, crash cool and replace the spent DME on the starter. By the time it is ready to pitch it is always chomping at the bit to get going. It will be fully up and running between 6 -10 hours depending on the strain some, of which will try to escape from the FV. I have been using this method in around 90% of my brews for over 20 years and never had a failure. Works well with wyeast, whitelabs brewlabs and live brewery yeast.

 

[Ghillie]

I did state I make fresh starter every time I use one of the splits, normally 4 days before I intend to brew.

Sorry I must have missed that bit.

I just don't understand why you'd make up 6 individual jars of yeast just to end up making a starter every brew though?

Why not overbuild one starter by 100billion, store that 100billion surplus in one jar? Repeat for next brew.

I'm just curious to find the benefits of having 6 jars of yeast in the fridge vs 1.

 

[An Ankoù]

A very interesting thread. I use a much simpler method, which, like all of you, has never let me down. Instead of making a starter or using the yeast "cake", Harvest the yeast from the top of the beer when the head is at its best (full krausen as they say in places where they should know better). I always take two flasks (or jars) saving about half the head in each together with about 100 ml of the beer. Cover with aluminium foil but in your hop fridge. It'll be good for at least two weeks- I've used it after three and a bit, but it won't keep for months. There's no need to make a starter from this, just bring it out of the fridge to warm up for a while and pitch. Incidentally, harvested yeast will "adapt" to your brewery, I often use US-05 which ferments faster and dryer after the second generation. I limit use to 6 generations as yeasts also mutate. Another yeast which works well down through the generations is Mangrove Jacks M84 (I think) Bohemian Pilsner.
Anybody else do it this way?
I should add that it's the tendency of the yeast to adapt, which puts me off paying loads for White labs or Wyeast cultures. Incidentally, I started doing this after reading Chris White's (of White Labs) excellent book on Yeast.

 

[MyQul]

A very interesting thread. I use a much simpler method, which, like all of you, has never let me down. Instead of making a starter or using the yeast "cake", Harvest the yeast from the top of the beer when the head is at its best (full krausen as they say in places where they should know better). I always take two flasks (or jars) saving about half the head in each together with about 100 ml of the beer. Cover with aluminium foil but in your hop fridge. It'll be good for at least two weeks- I've used it after three and a bit, but it won't keep for months. There's no need to make a starter from this, just bring it out of the fridge to warm up for a while and pitch. Incidentally, harvested yeast will "adapt" to your brewery, I often use US-05 which ferments faster and dryer after the second generation. I limit use to 6 generations as yeasts also mutate. Another yeast which works well down through the generations is Mangrove Jacks M84 (I think) Bohemian Pilsner.
Anybody else do it this way?
I should add that it's the tendency of the yeast to adapt, which puts me off paying loads for White labs or Wyeast cultures. Incidentally, I started doing this after reading Chris White's (of White Labs) excellent book on Yeast.

As you may or may not know, what you're doing is known as top cropping (whereas harvesting the yeast cake is bottom cropping - no sniggering at the back their @Clint ) Unfortunately not all yeasts are suitable for top cropping, really only those with large krausens like English or Belgian strains

However I came across another harvesting technique on another forum (jims) called yeast scavenging. What you do is about 36 hours after pitching, make a hole in the krausen and harvest a bottle ful of wort from just below the surface (I used a turkey baster). Let the bottle of wort ferment out. Then when you want to use the yeast, pour the beer off (and drink it, as it's just the same as the beer from the rest of the batch) and swirl up the yeast in the bottom of the bottle (you get loads more than just the small amount you usually get in the bottom of a bottle of HB) and pour it into a starter, and away you go

 

[An Ankoù]

As you may or may not know, what you're doing is known as top cropping (whereas harvesting the yeast cake is bottom cropping - no sniggering at the back their @Clint ) Unfortunately not all yeasts are suitable for top cropping, really only those with large krausens like English or Belgian strains

However I came across another harvesting technique on another forum (jims) called yeast scavenging. What you do is about 36 hours after pitching, make a hole in the krausen and harvest a bottle ful of wort from just below the surface (I used a turkey baster). Let the bottle of wort ferment out. Then when you want to use the yeast, pour the beer off (and drink it, as it's just the same as the beer from the rest of the batch) and swirl up the yeast in the bottom of the bottle (you get loads more than just the small amount you usually get in the bottom of a bottle of HB) and pour it into a starter, and away you go

You're right. Many years ago -I'll have to look in my records- I made a starter from a bottled beer, which never formed a real head. It just fizzed. The beer was ok, as I remember, but I never bothered with it again. I'll give your suggestion a try- in the interest of science. Thanks.

 

[trueblue]

Sorry I must have missed that bit.

I just don't understand why you'd make up 6 individual jars of yeast just to end up making a starter every brew though?

Why not overbuild one starter by 100billion, store that 100billion surplus in one jar? Repeat for next brew.

I'm just curious to find the benefits of having 6 jars of yeast in the fridge vs 1.

I have just found this a straight forward easy way to manage my yeast. I know I am pitching a sufficient amount of healthy yeast each time.

 

[trueblue]

However I came across another harvesting technique on another forum (jims) called yeast scavenging. What you do is about 36 hours after pitching, make a hole in the krausen and harvest a bottle ful of wort from just below the surface (I used a turkey baster). Let the bottle of wort ferment out. Then when you want to use the yeast, pour the beer off (and drink it, as it's just the same as the beer from the rest of the batch) and swirl up the yeast in the bottom of the bottle (you get loads more than just the small amount you usually get in the bottom of a bottle of HB) and pour it into a starter, and away you go

I have tried this method with limited success. Probably more to do with something I was doing rather than the method itself.

 

[Ghillie]

I know I am pitching a sufficient amount of healthy yeast each time.

Do you factor in viability?

 

[matt76]

However I came across another harvesting technique on another forum (jims) called yeast scavenging. What you do is about 36 hours after pitching, make a hole in the krausen and harvest a bottle ful of wort from just below the surface (I used a turkey baster).

How much are we talking @MyQul ? 250ml do the trick? I assume the idea here is at this stage the fermentation is so vigorous that the year is kept in suspension and hasn't settled out yet aunsure....

I've tried top cropping too but found it awkward to get the foam into a centrifuge tube Turkey baster sounds far simpler

 

[trueblue]

Do you factor in viability?

No, as I said it was over 20 years ago I started doing this so there was no internet and the books I worked with would never mention viability or yeast counting. I would travel 25 miles to get live yeast from a small brewery and the head brewer recommend this method to me so I didn't need to make so many journeys. I do remember him saying going over saying 6 splits might be a problem.