WW3

[Larse]

That’s whataboutery.

It's also ridiculously overstated in comparison to what goes on in Russia. There was a case last year of a captain (immediately sounds like a scapegoat) convicted in Russia of corruption for removing and selling (wait for it)...

Hundreds of T72 tank engines. Hundreds. Not the kind of thing you can hang from the inside of your coat and sidle into your local with...

Absolutely not a chance his superiors weren't in on it. But when the chips are down, there has to be a sacrifice. Comrade...

That's just one. There are thousands of examples like it and worse.

 

[JockyBrewer]

I suppose if you squint a lot and look through your fingers, you might be forgiven for thinking that a constitutional limit of two consecutive terms, being increased to four and reportedly to soon become six is only coincidence and has not got the faintest whiff of dictatorship in a 'political system' that has no real opposition and shamelessly high votes for the incumbent, then fair enough. I just can't stretch my credulity that far I'm afraid.

Edit: "we don’t even choose our own Prime Minister"

As I said before, I'm Irish, so don't have a Prime Minister, we call it Taoiseach. But this isn't the supposed anti-democratic concept people seem to think it is. Staying away from the UK system (because I'm Irish) we choose the people who choose the head of government. It's reminiscent of all that brexit malarkey about 'unelected bureaucrats' which was such a simplification of what in effect is a civil service. Which isn't elected either. And who'd want an elected civil service? It's a recipe for corruption, injustice and stagnation.

There’s a bit of a difference between a Prime Minister and a President, in that a PM doesn’t normally wield an ultimate executive power unless there are truly extraordinary circumstances.

Presidential systems are universally terrible (perhaps except for France, but only because I expect they’d depose a president at a marginal rise in price of cheese). When a president is elected then they have ultimate power and “the will of the people” to misuse it. If they’re not elected then they’re a dictator.

 

[Omega]

That’s whataboutery.

I didn’t start it .

 

[Brew_DD2]

A nuclear conflict will sort out over population, so it’s not all bad.

What over-population? Population is set to peak anyway, and begin to decrease.

 

[Laner]

What over-population?

Please tell me that was not a genuine question?

 

[Brew_DD2]

Please tell me that was not a genuine question?

It is. What metric are you using to state that the earth is over-populated? Resources could sustain far more people and the majority of the earth is sparsely populated, so land isn't an issue.

Whether it would be sustainable environmentally is another matter.

It's kind of a moot point anyway given the world population will be in natural decline come the end of the century.

 

[Laner]

It is. What metric are you using to state that the earth is over-populated? Resources could sustain far more people and the majority of the earth is sparsely populated, so land isn't an issue.

Whether it would be sustainable environmentally is another matter.

It's kind of a moot point anyway given the world population will be in nature decline come the end of the century.

The metric of the population can not reliably feed itself.

“Land is not an issue”? But inhabitable land is..

The environment has been damaged by human activity and is reducing the sustainability of human life, the more of us the greater the damage..

Thats over population.

Who gives a flying F about the end of the century the decline is happening now, the more we do to reduce the population the better. Nuke em

 

[Brew_DD2]

The metric of the population can not reliably feed itself.

Well, that's not quite true, but at risk of the derailing the thread topic, I'll leave it there.

As for the rest of your post, maybe go take a cold shower.

 

[Omega]

He also said this in 2022 (Narva by the way is in Estonia).

Less of the 'we' business, I'm Irish.

Found what Putin said in that speech. Well, if we decide to misinterpret the speech, then Putin makes a claim to all land east of Berlin because those lands were slavic. Equally, if we misinterpret our politicians, then we treat Russia as our slave who should comply to what we tell them.
I need something that cannot be misinterpreted

 

[Omega]

It's also ridiculously overstated in comparison to what goes on in Russia. There was a case last year of a captain (immediately sounds like a scapegoat) convicted in Russia of corruption for removing and selling (wait for it)...

Hundreds of T72 tank engines. Hundreds. Not the kind of thing you can hang from the inside of your coat and sidle into your local with...

Absolutely not a chance his superiors weren't in on it. But when the chips are down, there has to be a sacrifice. Comrade...

That's just one. There are thousands of examples like it and worse.

Good point. However, Ukraine is not far from Russia - I quickly found these articles https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/10...-million-corruption-forged-medical-documents/
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraines-prosecutor-andriy-kostin-scandal-russia-troops/
I often speak to a doctor who is from Ukraine - his brother is disabled from childhood and was never drafted to Soviet army because of the disability, so he is well over 55. However, his brother had to pay the bribe to confirm that he was disabled... One level of bribery is when you pay for injustice to happen, but it is way worse when you have to pay the bribe to maintain the justice...
South Vietnamese Government was well corrupt before USA ditched them. And this was not an isolated case...

 

[Omega]

There's only one way to deal with a bully and it isn't to let him carry on without any reprisals. It was embarrassing watching world leaders kissing putins .... just before he invaded Ukraine we should have done more before now , and I'm sure this would have been over already . We should hit him hard and teach him that just thinking you are right doesn't necessarily mean you are .all our thoughts should be with the Ukrainian people who have been treated terribly by Russia for decades

We, collective West, are the biggest bullies according to Meirsteimer's offensive realism theory. At least we are civilised

 

[JockyBrewer]

Good point. However, Ukraine is not far from Russia - I quickly found these articles https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/10...-million-corruption-forged-medical-documents/
https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraines-prosecutor-andriy-kostin-scandal-russia-troops/
I often speak to a doctor who is from Ukraine - his brother is disabled from childhood and was never drafted to Soviet army because of the disability, so he is well over 55. However, his brother had to pay the bribe to confirm that he was disabled... One level of bribery is when you pay for injustice to happen, but it is way worse when you have to pay the bribe to maintain the justice...
South Vietnamese Government was well corrupt before USA ditched them. And this was not an isolated case...

More whataboutery. “There’s corruption in Ukraine therefore it belongs to Putin/excuses Putin's corruption.”

Of course there is corruption, corruption is something that has to be constantly watched out for and called out when discovered. The difference is that in the west there’s a free press that can call it out without being banned or having their journalists mysteriously fall out of windows.

Go take a look at Poland - formally a vassal to the USSR where corruption was endemic for decades and practically an industry of its own. It now has a free press and a strong legal framework against corruption. It's not perfect, but it has come a hell of a long way in a relatively short time. Estonia is another - now perceived as less corrupt than the UK and France. Why has this happened? Money. Joining the EU opens up a massive trade market, but also required them to adopt laws around transparency and anti corruption. Customers further west are also required to scrutinise their suppliers.

And that's what Putin is afraid of. Ukraine being out of his control and cleaning itself up so it actively distances itself from his corruption.

 

[Omega]

More whataboutery.“There’s corruption in Ukraine therefore it belongs to Putin/excuses Putin's corruption.”

Of course there is corruption, corruption is something that has to be constantly watched out for and called out when discovered. The difference is that in the west there’s a free press that can call it out without being banned or having their journalists mysteriously fall out of windows.

Go take a look at Poland - formally a vassal to the USSR where corruption was endemic for decades and practically an industry of its own. It now has a free press and a strong legal framework against corruption. It's not perfect, but it has come a hell of a long way in a relatively short time. Estonia is another - now perceived as less corrupt than the UK and France. Why has this happened? Money. Joining the EU opens up a massive trade market, but also required them to adopt laws around transparency and anti corruption. Customers further west are also required to scrutinise their suppliers.

And that's what Putin is afraid of. Ukraine being out of his control and cleaning itself up so it actively distances itself from his corruption.

We have regulated press - we have laws that prohibit distribution of some information
And you jump on ladder of inference - I never said: “There’s corruption in Ukraine therefore it belongs to Putin/excuses Putin's corruption.” You are being misled into thinking that there is either one way or another - there are lots of ways out of this situation
My point is that we are far from perfect and we personally should avoid being used by other groups to pursue their interests. Moreover, we should not allow others gambling with our lives
“People have always been and always will be foolish victims of deception and self-deception in politics until they learn to seek out the interests of one or another class behind any moral, religious, political, social phrases, declarations, promises.” — Lenin, Three Sources and Three Components of Marxism

 

[Larse]

And you jump on ladder of inference - I never said: “There’s corruption in Ukraine therefore it belongs to Putin/excuses Putin's corruption.” You are being misled into thinking that there is either one way or another - there are lots of ways out of this situation

You were accused of whataboutery, the example given was to illustrate it. Answering a report of corruption in Russia with an example of corruption in Ukraine (or for that matter in the UK or elsewhere) as if this somehow balances out and/or excuses.

It's a deflection tactic used to undermine a discussion. I generally don't engage with it because it's dishonest. Only answering now because it looks to me like you don't understand the term.

 

[Omega]

You were accused of whataboutery, the example given was to illustrate it. Answering a report of corruption in Russia with an example of corruption in Ukraine (or for that matter in the UK or elsewhere) as if this somehow balances out and/or excuses.

It's a deflection tactic used to undermine a discussion. I generally don't engage with it because it's dishonest. Only answering now because it looks to me like you don't understand the term.

I had to Google “whataboutery” and replied based on the answer. There is a probability your definition is not the same as what Google spits out

 

[Larse]

I had to Google “whataboutery” and replied based on the answer. There is a probability your definition is not the same as what Google spits out

The Google definition is accurate but a bit ambiguous.

It's called whataboutery or whataboutism because it essentially boils down to a response to any statement/accusation/evidence/whatever by responding "but what about [insert counter-accusation/evidence/whatever here] to avoid talking about the initial topic. Or to excuse it.

Also known as deflection. Although there are many deflection tactics of which whataboutery is just one.

 

[Omega]

The Google definition is accurate but a bit ambiguous.

It's called whataboutery or whataboutism because it essentially boils down to a response to any statement/accusation/evidence/whatever by responding "but what about [insert counter-accusation/evidence/whatever here] to avoid talking about the initial topic. Or to excuse it.

Also known as deflection. Although there are many deflection tactics of which whataboutery is just one.

Then we are on the same page
However, I do not see whataboutery. I am trying to define if the argument is objective or subjective, and applying different criteria to different sides is an indication of a subjective opinion. However, I also apply the second test - a person can be objective even when they give a subjective opinion if they personally benefit from the consequent reaction on that subjective opinion (manipulation).

 

[Rodcx500z]

given the world population will be in natural decline come the end of the century.

The way Putin is talking it will be in decline next week,

 

[Larse]

Then we are on the same page
However, I do not see whataboutery. I am trying to define if the argument is objective or subjective, and applying different criteria to different sides is an indication of a subjective opinion. However, I also apply the second test - a person can be objective even when they give a subjective opinion if they personally benefit from the consequent reaction on that subjective opinion (manipulation).

Facts aren't subjective.

 

[Omega]

Facts aren't subjective.