Wort Chiller v Water Bath: worth the cost?

[morethanworts]

Hi there

I'm wondering whether it will really be worth the cost of an immersion wort chiller to cool a stock pot of wort, versus just putting it in the sink and changing it a few times, with a few freezer blocks in there as well.

As far as risk of infection goes, having to remove the lid to have the chiller in there seems to balance out some of the benefit, against a vessel that has been sealed since the boil (?)

I don't yet fully understand the science beyond that, so I'd be grateful for any more considerations and benefits. Having just returned to brewing after many years away, I can say that I only ever had one obviously infected (bacteria) brew, but I'm not sure how many lesser off-tastes may have been prevented by a better method throughout the process - and this bit is one that I am looking at.

Cheers...

 

[rpt]

You could also try a no-chill cube.

 

[graysalchemy]

A quicker chill will result in more of the hot break proteins coming out in the cold break which leads to clearer beer. Also the infection issue the quicker you can get the yeast in to start growing the better and the best way to do that is to chill quicker.

:thumb: :thumb:

 

[calumscott]

Here's the thing...

...contrary to popular belief, there is scientific research to suggest that it isn't the speed of cooling that promotes the so called "cold break" rather the minimum temperature that the wort reaches. I think I found it on (or from) the protofloc website but I can't be 100% sure...

The positives for chilling quickly are, however, manifold. The quicker it's tucked up in a sterile FV the better from an infection point of view. Also the longer the wort is hot the more of those delicate aroma volitiles from late addition hops you'll lose. Also chilling is going to simply shorten your brewday.

The science suggests that for the clearest wort you should over-chill, get the wort down to zero if you can for the flocs to form then bring it back up to temperature to pitch.

A no-chill cube and a chest freezer... :hmm:

I'm not that bothered (at the moment anyway) about clarity so I just drop the wort to FV and leave it outside until cool then ferment on the break material. Tastes superb, is a bit hazy, practically zero infection risk...

Immersion chiller is going to leave more cold break material in the copper so you'll get clearer beer. There is no reason not to have vessels covered during chilling and transfer - DMS is going to be long gone by then. Infection risk is minimal.

Counterflow chilling - you'll have break material in FV. So the only advantage seems to be shortening the brewday. You could settle it and rack prior to fermentation but that's increasing infection risk with an additional transfer and time to pitching...

I'm starting to be of the mind that cubes are actually the best solution all round. You drop boiling wort to the cube so there is no infection risk, you can leave it to cool naturally if you are in no rush, it's sterile so safe. You can push things along either for speed or to get a lower-than-pitching temperature to break the smallest particles out through use of a water bath/ice blocks/etc. You can warm it back to pitching temperature still in its sterile environment then rack once to its primary FV to take it off the break material.

And they're dirt cheap...

...I've convinced myself. One more thing off the shopping list... :lol:


EDIT: I found the thing I read.

On cooling, wort proteins interact with polyphenols to precipitate as cold
break. This material consists of very fine particles that are slow to settle and consequently are
likely to survive into finished beer. Taken in combination, boiling and wort cooling remove
17-35% of the total protein content, depending upon the malt variety and hop product/variety
used.(8) Cold break formation is temperature dependent, only forming in significant quantities
below 20-30oC, and increasing dramatically in quantity as the temperature is further
decreased.(1) The removal of these cold break particles can be facilitated and enhanced by
kettle fining

There is no mention of rate of cooling as an influencing factor on floc formation and given that the references seem pretty heavywieght:

(1) - Hough, J.S., Briggs, D.E., Stevens, R., and Young, T.W., Malting and Brewing Science, Volume 2, Chapman and Hall, (1982)
(8) - Erdal, K., Outtrup, H. and Ahrenst-Larsen, B., European Brewery Convention, Proceedings of the 20th Congress, Helsinki, 459, (1985)

I reckon they'd have mentioned cooling rate if it was a contributing factor and included it in the article. Just found it on Google Books but I really can't justify the 168 quid... :lol:

 

[rpt]

No-chill cubes have the advantage that you can split the brew day which makes it much easier to fit brewing around family life. Anything to keep SWMBO happy.

 

[jonnymorris]

My answer won't be nearly as good as the one above but I'd vote yes, get a chiller. It'll cost no more than £30 and the time saving alone make it worthwhile IMHO.

 

[johnnyh]

no chill cube and then put it in a bath with cold water, works pretty quickly for me :)

(note: make sure the good lady isn't in the bath first!)

 

[morethanworts]

Great...and very prompt responses! Thanks. Perhaps I should say that I'm mainly interested in getting results from extract, just adding the hops in the boil. This was how I got my best result way-back-when. So I'm not sure how much of a cold break there will be, with no grains to mash.

I'd read some disadvantages of no-chill cubes, ranging from plastic-leeching to lack of clarity. It's good to hear your positive results.

Johnnyh... Will our whirlpool bath do it even better? Sounds a good plan!

 

[calumscott]

Great...and very prompt responses! Thanks. Perhaps I should say that I'm mainly interested in getting results from extract, just adding the hops in the boil. This was how I got my best result way-back-when. So I'm not sure how much of a cold break there will be, with no grains to mash.

Hops contribute stuff that needs to be "broken" out of the wort. If you have malt extract that has already been through hot and cold breaks then you won't get a lot, but it's worth doing if you want non-hazy beer

I'd read some disadvantages of no-chill cubes, ranging from plastic-leeching to lack of clarity. It's good to hear your positive results.

So long as you use food grade cans you'll be fine. The camping/caravanning 25l water carriers are food safe.

Johnnyh... Will our whirlpool bath do it even better? Sounds a good plan!

Certainly would! In static water you have a temperature gradient to overcome - basically the water closest to the bucket is at the same temp as the wort and that heat needs to move down a temperature slope. If the water outside is moving then that slope is more of a cliff...

 

[johnnyh]

Johnnyh... Will our whirlpool bath do it even better? Sounds a good plan!

hehehe beats throwing a cat in! :rofl:

 

[joe1002]

:lol: :lol:

 

[BigYin]

I prefer to chill quickly - the longer the time between boiling and pitching the greater the infection risk, and do NOT think it's safe because it's sterile - sterile is a wildly over used term, and your fermenter will NOT be sterile - it will only be sanitized, and there's a big difference.

Since we don't use autoclaves or brew in a controlled atmosphere, there WILL be wild nasties floating around. What we have to do is try and establish a really strong yeast population as fast as we can, so that it has the upper hand over the unwanted invaders :thumb:

This is the main reason for fast chilling - that and better clarity in the end result.

 

[morethanworts]

Johnnyh... Will our whirlpool bath do it even better? Sounds a good plan!

hehehe beats throwing a cat in! :rofl:

We've got one of those too and it would use less electricity... :whistle:

Big Yin... It wouldn't hit the FV until cool in the stock pot (lid on), though I do get your distinction between sanitised and sterile.

Edit:
PS Does anyone know if those camping 25l carriers are BPA-free? There were and perhaps still are baby-bottles around that had something called BPA in the plastic, which some research has suggested is dangerous to health, released only when very hot fluid comes in contact - despite being 'Food Safe'. The problem only surfaced because parents were making up formula milk IN the bottle, rather than letting it cool first. It was in the news a while back.

 

[rpt]

PS Does anyone know if those camping 25l carriers are BPA-free? There were and perhaps still are baby-bottles around that had something called BPA in the plastic, which some research has suggested is dangerous to health, released only when very hot fluid comes in contact - despite being 'Food Safe'. The problem only surfaced because parents were making up formula milk IN the bottle, rather than letting it cool first. It was in the news a while back.

The water carriers that are recommended for no-chill cubes are made from HDPE. Apparently this type of plastic is unlikely to contain BPA. Certainly baby bottles are not made with HDPE - they are too rigid for that.

I know this is off topic, but how are you supposed to make up formula milk, except in the bottle? Although you have to let the water cool a bit, it is still meant to be hot to sanitise the powder.

 

[rpt]

According to U.S. Department of Health & Human Services:

Plastic Containers Made with BPA Used in Food Preparation. Plastic containers have recycle codes on the bottom. In general, plastics that are marked with recycle codes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 are very unlikely to contain BPA. Some, but not all, plastics that are marked with recycle code 7 may be made with BPA.

HDPE is code 2. This is probably one of the reasons HDPE is recommended for no-chill cubes.

 

[bunkerbrewer]

I prefer to chill quickly - the longer the time between boiling and pitching the greater the infection risk, and do NOT think it's safe because it's sterile - sterile is a wildly over used term, and your fermenter will NOT be sterile - it will only be sanitized, and there's a big difference..

Immersion chilling in an open kettle vs no-chilling in a sealed cube though? :)

I use a no-chill cube without any infection problems, and with all of the benefits listed above. I don't think the quality of sanitisation of the fermenter is related to cooling - we all have to get our wort into the FV at some point, however it's cooled.

 

[Pearlfisher]

anyone a photo of these no chill/chill cubes please? , I've never seen one and not sure how they work. :wha:

 

[calumscott]

anyone a photo of these no chill/chill cubes please? , I've never seen one and not sure how they work. :wha:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/25-Litre-Plasti ... 115&sr=8-1

Something like that... (but check, like I didn't, that it's food safe...)

 

[bunkerbrewer]

(but check, like I didn't, that it's food safe...)

Yep, they're for water use so they're food safe.

You need to check it's made of HDPE (high-density poly ethene, I think). Usually labelled this way, sometimes "PE-HD". The little embossed recycling logo has a number 2 on it, (again, I think - that's from memory). This material can withstand the heat, as ideally you're putting the wort in at > 80°C.

These definitely work, but quite a bit more expensive than Callum's link: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gelert-25-Ltr-J ... 639&sr=8-1

How they work is pretty simple - hot wort into the cube (it will go a bit soft at this point). Try to squeeze out as much air as you can and tighten the lid. Lie it on either side for a few mins to make sure it's all sterilised, and leave it to cool naturally. It'll shrink and distort but it'll be fine - mine's done 11 brews so far and is still going strong.

 

[Pearlfisher]

Thanks both.