Wort Chiller - Is it really necessary?

[terrym]

I understand what you're saying here but I don't think you assessment is accurate. I would classify it as 'very low' and 'moderate' respectively*. If I lose 1 in 100 batches that would be a minor annoyance, brewing a 20 litre batch costs me very little money and very little time partly due to to time-saving measures like no-chill.

Qualitative risk analysis is all relative. You can have the three basic categories of high, medium or low attached to probability and impact or you can expand it. But the real objective is to understand what makes up the risk and then, if necessary, do something about it, which is the management part. But if an individual owns the risk and the subsequent impact affects them alone its up to them how they address it, and that course of action may be different to the next person due to their perceptions of what is important to them.

 

[PhilBrew]

Are you sure? I got the impression most of the no-chill advocates here aren't using cubes.

... some are, some aren't ... just like some who declare themselves as "chillers" will be using PBW'd and autoclaved counter-flow plate chillers, whilst others will utilise a fat, sweaty brewer frantically stirring their cooling wort over the coils of their immersion chiller in an open pan, coughing and spitting from the exertion ... and some procedures introduce more contaminants into the resulting wort than others

Cheers, PhilB

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

My what an image you conjure up :-)

 

[Buffers brewery]

Did you include the specific latent heat of fusion, and the initial temperature of the ice (prob. about -10ºc) ? :-)

Surprised you didn't check my sums by doing your own! That's what "Engineers" do isn't it?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Surprised you didn't check my sums by doing your own!

The thought did cross my mind, but I thought it might have been a bit disrespectful :-)

 

[Buffers brewery]

The thought did cross my mind, but I thought it might have been a bit disrespectful :-)

Ha ha! Too much of a gentleman for sure. You were right to point out the starting temperature. My sums started at 0C because I didn’t know the SH of ice! Apparently is 0.5 cal/grm/C. So for a starting temperature of -10C for the ice and 10 litres of wort at 100C in perfect conditions you’ll need 7.6 litres of ice!

 

[HeavensBrew]

My ghettto idea lasted a split second longer than Megan Markle's search for privacy!

 

[Binkei Huckaback]

... some are, some aren't ... just like some who declare themselves as "chillers" will be using PBW'd and autoclaved counter-flow plate chillers, whilst others will utilise a fat, sweaty brewer frantically stirring their cooling wort over the coils of their immersion chiller in an open pan, coughing and spitting from the exertion ... and some procedures introduce more contaminants into the resulting wort than others

Cheers, PhilB

I've used both a homemade immersion chiller and a grainfather counterflow chiller in London at all times of year and have never stirred my wort while cooling it. It's always cooled fairly quickly on it's own.

 

[Binkei Huckaback]

If I lose 1 in 100 batches that would be a minor annoyance, brewing a 20 litre batch costs me very little money and very little time partly due to to time-saving measures like no-chill.

It also misses the cost of taking preventative measures which for me counts as 'moderate' since it's the only time during the process where I have to stand next the kettle and get in trouble with my wife for not doing whatever I should be doing at that moment.

Where do you live that is so hot it takes longer to chill 5 gallons of wort than it does to clean most of your kit wirh the warm water that comes out the other end of the chiller? Your wife gives you grief for having the occasional day doing something you enjoy? See if you can swap her for a wort chiller!

 

[Wynne]

How many home brewers have died or become seriously ill from botulism? None.

A couple of interesting articles:

https://www.cdc.gov/botulism/pruno-a-recipe-for-botulism.html
http://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2020/01/29/botulism-in-beer/
It appears that the risk of botulism poisoning from wort is amplified by length of storage period and exposure to spores of the bacterium Clostridium botulinum (present e.g. in honey, fruit or soil). One can see how compounding these risks e.g. by adding honey or fruit and storing wort for 3 days or more would increase the risk.

 

[foxy]

A couple of interesting articles:

https://www.cdc.gov/botulism/pruno-a-recipe-for-botulism.html
http://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2020/01/29/botulism-in-beer/
It appears that the risk of botulism poisoning from wort is amplified by length of storage period and exposure to spores of the bacterium Clostridium botulinum (present e.g. in honey, fruit or soil). One can see how compounding these risks e.g. by adding honey or fruit and storing wort for 3 days or more would increase the risk.

FWK's have a usable shelf life of 1 year, I have read of home brewers keeping them as long as 2 years.
I don't think any home brewer would be stupid enough keep a wort in a kettle for 3 days after the boil. If Mr Stupid did, the very last infection he would have to worry about would be Clostridium Botulinum. 1 ppm of iso alpha acid is enough to inhibit the growth of CB, an English ale has 25 to 40 ppm an American IPA as much as 100 ppm. Not only are the hops beneficial against CB the wort's high sugar content is a inhibitor too.
That is the reason a home brewer will not get botulism from a home brew.

 

[Wynne]

FWK's have a usable shelf life of 1 year, I have read of home brewers keeping them as long as 2 years.
I don't think any home brewer would be stupid enough keep a wort in a kettle for 3 days after the boil. If Mr Stupid did, the very last infection he would have to worry about would be Clostridium Botulinum. 1 ppm of iso alpha acid is enough to inhibit the growth of CB, an English ale has 25 to 40 ppm an American IPA as much as 100 ppm. Not only are the hops beneficial against CB the wort's high sugar content is a inhibitor too.
That is the reason a home brewer will not get botulism from a home brew.

Fair point on the bactericidal effect of hops. Please would you provide a reference for the effect of iso-alpha acids on Clostridium botrinum?

 

[foxy]

Fair point on the bactericidal effect of hops. Please would you provide a reference for the effect of iso-alpha acids on Clostridium botrinum?

There are plenty of papers out there, some you have to pay for, here is an abstract of one, you may be able to down load the full text for free or a nominal sum.

Antimicrobial activity of hops extract against Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile and Helicobacter pylori

Abstract

The present invention relates to the discovery that hop extract is useful as an antibacterial agent against the dangerous pathogens Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and Helicobacter pylori at levels below that at which a flavor from the acids contained therein is objectionable. More specifically, a process and associated product is described herein, comprising applying a solution of hop extract to a food, beverage or other medium so that the final concentration of hop ingredients is about 1 ppm or higher in order to inhibit the growth of Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and/or Helicobacter pylori.

https://academic.oup.com/jac/article/61/4/853/846457

 

[Wynne]

@foxy thank you, unfortunately, both of the references you provided relate to hop beta acids which don’t isomerise during the boil so are sparingly soluble in wort.

 

[samale]

This is turning into a **** measuring contest. The question was asked is it necessary to have a wort chiller. The answer is no

 

[Clint]

"**** measuring"

 

[foxy]

@foxy thank you, unfortunately, both of the references you provided relate to hop beta acids which don’t isomerise during the boil so are sparingly soluble in wort.

Both Alpha and Beta have a anti microbial effect on C Botulinum.

For arguments sake just say neither did have any effect. C. Botulinum will thrive in a protein rich environment, but not in a carbohydrate rich environment of over 30% carbohydrates. Seeing as wort is over 70% median it will not survive. And if anyone was really so pedantic about no chill, nothing wrong with adding acid to bring the wort down to a pH of 4.5 and raise it again in the fermenter.

As I mentioned earlier FWK's is big business over here, all produced by home brew shops and some craft breweries, and all 'no chill'.

Our hobby of home brewing has bigger ramifications attributed to drinking our end product, cancer, liver disease, kidney failure, high blood pressure, heart disease, memory loss, stroke, without making something up to put on the list.

Chilling and no chilling both work, just different processes and either one still needs the same amount of attention when it comes to common sense and cleanliness.

This is turning into a **** measuring contest. The question was asked is it necessary to have a wort chiller. The answer is no

Call me Maxwell Hung.

 

[The Baron]

This is turning into a **** measuring contest. The question was asked is it necessary to have a wort chiller. The answer is no

If it is I think Foxy may have the biggest Lol

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Is a TV or washing machine necessary the answer is no. But like them a wort chiller does make life (and brew day) easier.

 

[samale]