Woodforde Kits and Stuck Fermentation

[activeservo]

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and brewing. I've done a lot of research and a mash course and hope to start buying the all grain kit soon!

Anyway, in the meantime I have tried a couple of kits; Woodfordes Wherry and NOG.

The first kit, Wherry, OG 1.041 stuck around 1.02 but restarted after I replaced the lid (no stirring), ending with an FG 1.004. I then bottled it (41 bottles) with 65g (total) dextrose. During bottling it tasted unbelievably bitter (certainly living up to its name) with an awful lingering bitter aftertaste but I hoped this was normal and just "green beer". I kept the bottles at 21degC for 2 weeks to carbonate then transferred to the beer fridge at exactly 12degC with the intention of opening one bottle every week and recording the result until I find its best. 2 weeks in the bitterness started subsiding. I tried one yesterday (3 weeks) and it’s still there but becoming drinkable(!!) Is that extreme bitterness normal? It’s not infected (sour, vinegar, musty taste) as it seems to be going but that’s 5 weeks since fermentation was complete! I can’t find anything online about this excess bitterness issue. I have to say 65g of dextrose makes for perfect carbonation in this kit and secondary fermentation has given an extremely clear beer without any fining agents…so success on that front, but looks aren’t everything!

The second kit, NOG, started off great OG 1.042, fermenting this time in the workshop at 20degC (cooler than the house) but it also stuck at 1.021. As I'm very short for time (perhaps not good for brewing) and it had been 1 week (equal to the Wherry), I racked it anyway, this time into a king keg with plenty of CO2 purge beforehand to prevent infection. That worked fine, with 1.5” of trub remaining in the fermenter confirming the yeast did quite a bit of work, but not enough! I stored the keg at 20degC. I was hoping with the dextrose, and experience from the first kit, it would finish off fermenting but after retesting a week later (despite the very high pressure in the keg, which was nice) the FG hadn't changed from 1.021. I'm assuming the dextrose was fermented but then it has stopped again. Surely it should keep going, especially after slight disturbance during racking, perfect temperature and kick from the dextrose? It tastes better than the Wherry but I think that's because half the original sugar remains, offsetting the bitterness, but it’s basically too sweet at the moment..Should I chuck this batch? I'm considering keeping it anyway, to record the experience by trying some each week like I’m doing with the Wherry and learn from it. Even if it’s a ruined batch it’s all good learning. Keg will have been at 20degC for 2 weeks tomorrow. Do I keep it out and hope it’ll keep fermenting down to the desired FG? or should I place it in the beer fridge and keep my fingers crossed?

Any views welcome.

Many Thanks

 

[MyQul]

The reason why your wherry is so bitter is because wherry 's FG is around 1.010 (I think) and yours is at 1.004. So most of the sugars that balance out the bittering hops have been fermented out leading to a more bitter beer.

You could try blending them. In theory the more bitter wherry will balance out the sweeter nog. Try blending them in the glass as that way you can get the balance between nog and wherry to your tastes. I've never tried blending beers myself. Other than doing it in the glass I'm not sure whether you could do it in your keg for example - try doing a bit of googling to see if you can find an answer

 

[activeservo]

The reason why your wherry is so bitter is because wherry 's FG is around 1.010 (I think) and yours is at 1.004. So most of the sugars that balance out the bittering hops have been fermented out leading to a more bitter beer.

You could try blending them. In theory the more bitter wherry will balance out the sweeter nog. Try blending them in the glass as that way you can get the balance between nog and wherry to your tastes. I've never tried blending beers myself. Other than doing it in the glass I'm not sure whether you could do it in your keg for example - try doing a bit of googling to see if you can find an answer

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Thanks for explaining the bitterness. Not sure how to prevent the FG from falling too far in future apart from racking and cooling it? From reading forums etc I don't suppose a FG that's too low happens often?

I'll retest the NOG and try blending them in a glass tomorrow and see what happens.

What are your thoughts on the NOG, "Do I keep it out and hope it’ll keep fermenting down to the desired FG? or should I place it in the beer fridge and keep my fingers crossed?"

 

[MyQul]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Thanks for explaining the bitterness. Not sure how to prevent the FG from falling too far in future apart from racking and cooling it? From reading forums etc I don't suppose a FG that's too low happens often?

I'll retest the NOG and try blending them in a glass tomorrow and see what happens.

What are your thoughts on the NOG, "Do I keep it out and hope it’ll keep fermenting down to the desired FG? or should I place it in the beer fridge and keep my fingers crossed?"

With the wherry what did you mean my "replaced the lid"? Did to take the lid of the FV off for some reason? If you did wild yeast could have gotten in. A wild yeast infection can have no perceptable off taste but can overattenuate your beer till there's almost no sugars left.
What was the temp you kept it at after the initial fermentation was over? If it was high the yeast can overattenuate your beer leading to your 1.004 FG

Edit: Try this first. The yeast might have fallen out of suspention too soon and stuck your brew so santise a long spoon and gently, so you don't introduce oxygen and oxidise your beer, stir the sediment at the bottom to rouse the yeast

You could try adding some more high attenuating yeast like nottingham/Gervin/G12 Wilko sell it as 'Ale yeast' it's only £1.75 per pack. Rehydrate it first ( https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/rehydrating-dry-yeast/ )then add to the NOG. However doing this generally wont work because the wort has been stripped of most nutrients and oxygen by the first lot of yeast. To let the new yeast have the best chance of further fermenting the wort you need to make a starter and it's a massive faff to make a starter with dried yeast.

 

[activeservo]

With the wherry what did you mean my "replaced the lid"? Did to take the lid of the FV off for some reason? If you did wild yeast could have gotten in. A wild yeast infection can have no perceptable off taste but can overattenuate your beer till there's almost no sugars left.
What was the temp you kept it at after the initial fermentation was over? If it was high the yeast can overattenuate your beer leading to your 1.004 FG

Edit: Try this first. The yeast might have fallen out of suspention too soon and stuck your brew so santise a long spoon and gently, so you don't introduce oxygen and oxidise your beer, stir the sediment at the bottom to rouse the yeast

You could try adding some more high attenuating yeast like nottingham/Gervin/G12 Wilko sell it as 'Ale yeast' it's only £1.75 per pack. Rehydrate it first ( https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/rehydrating-dry-yeast/ )then add to the NOG. However doing this generally wont work because the wort has been stripped of most nutrients and oxygen by the first lot of yeast. To let the new yeast have the best chance of further fermenting the wort you need to make a starter and it's a massive faff to make a starter with dried yeast.

Hi, Re the Wherry, the lid was on. I just took it off to test SG and replaced it and it started fermenting again. It was kept at 21degC throughout. It was bitter straight after initial fermentation. I racked and bottled it immediately. Racking bucket and bottles were purged with CO2 before filling (to prevent infection). Bottles then kept at 20degC for 2 weeks, 12degC ever since (3 weeks). Bitterness is reducing.

Thanks for the suggestion re the NOG, I'll retest SG and if it's still 1.021 I assume there will be some sediment in the keg so I'll try mixing it. Otherwise I'll get some yeast. I've been wanted to make a starter, got the kit but was looking to do this for the next brew....

Personally, given both kits have have been made exactly the same with only 1degC difference in fermentation temp and both stalled around 1.021, I think they are supplied with insufficient or off yeast which is commonly reported on the forums re kits. With the next kit I'll use a starter and see if it's successful.

Once I've achieved a full fermentation and got a decent tasting beer it's onto AG!

 

[MyQul]

Just to be clear, you can't make a starter with dried yeast. If you do you essentially starve the yeast because putting a whole packet of yeast of yeast in 1L-2L of starter wort is not enough nutrients for it and you'll end up with an unhealthy yeast crop. If you want to make a starter harvest some of the yeast (about 150ml) from the bottom of the Keg other wise buy a 10g-11g dried yeast and rehydrate. As you say woodfords kits are notorius for sticking because they don't give you enough yeast

 

[Sandimas]

Woodfordes kits are notorious for stuck brews (around 1020), as is anything made by Muntons.
http://www.muntonshomebrew.com/other-products/other-branded-homebrew-kits/

The only time I've managed to get a stuck brew going again is:
- a good stir
- get the temp up, 21C or more
- add some fementables such as 150g sugar dissolved in a little water.

You can reduced the risk of a stuck brew with a Muntons kit by adding a teaspoon of yeast nutrient at the start and keeping the temp around 20/21C rather than the recommended minimum 18C.

 

[MyQul]

Amylase Enzyme seems to work quite well too.

http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Amylase_Starch_Enzyme_25g.html#.VZauqlJuUQk

Hops and dreams, another forumite recently used it to get a stuck brew down from about 1.020 to 1.010

 

[MyQul]

The only time I've managed to get a stuck brew going again is:
- a good stir
- get the temp up, 21C or more
- add some fementables such as 150g sugar dissolved in a little water.

I like this Darrell, I'm goin to nick it for a cut and paste 'thread' due to the amount of people that come on the forum seeking advice for stuck brews.

 

[cornyandy]

I'll risk it by saying I've never had a stuck Wherry, not sure why but I wonder about the little sachet of yeast a lot. I do have a kit to get on the go over the next few days and am wondering whether to stick a Gervin yeast in and see what happens. (Either that or the Munich yeast I picked up for coppers because the pack looked a little untidy, It is still sealed and well in date) It might be interesting to see the difference.

 

[Truffle_Shuffle]

My wherry was par for the course, stalled at 1.020 after a stir and moving somewhere warmer it finished at 1.010. Did have a thin oily film on top but been told its normal so gonna bottle this wknd

 

[ceejam]

I've just bottled my first ever Wherry.
I decided to substitute the supplies yeast door a pack of S-04 I had.
I'd read a lot of posts about Wherry sticking so wanted to avoid it.
It fermented from 1044 to 1012 in 10 days. I racked to a secondary and left it in the garage for 3 weeks as I was on holiday.
It's clear as a bell in the bottles and the sample tasted good!

 

[alarmsparks]

Just did my first wherry, no problem with it getting stuck. Finished at 1010. I did see some where that woodfords brews are made by muntons, could explain the matching getting stuck issues. I have done a lot of the woodfords headcrackers with no stuck issues so no idea why some get stuck though.

 

[activeservo]

Update from last weekend.

Tried the NOG last Saturday and the sweetness was subsiding, just shy of being a nice pint! Gave the keg a few soft shakes rather than stirring (as we discussed) thinking I'd rather loose a bit of carbonation over removing the lid and risk infection. I can always force carbonate later. Tested the NOG this morning and it's now 1.016(!) so the shaking seems to have got things moving over the last week. It's still not low enough but it'll do. Given that's 3 weeks in secondary I'll be moving it to the fridge tonight.

Hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll have two batches of nice brew.

One thing's for sure, the longer you store beer the better it gets, even if it wasn't a perfect brew to start with.

Any suggestions on the next kit? Are there any good non-mainstream kits available? Also, I think I'll get some S-04.