Hi Clarence and Agentgonzo thanks for your replys , Christmas beer ideas looks a good read ,Many years ago mid 1970 s when the pubs in the uk had small barrels of winter warmer on the bars i started making my first beer kits i made Johnbull kit with alot of dark brown soft sugar it was as good as the pub one , thats what i am looking to make no spice just a dark rich taste