Which type of pot for HLT and boiler?

[periolus]

It has been ages since I was researching my build, and I am finally about to start getting kit together to go AG!

BUT....and I have probably been told before....I need to check what type of pans will be best for my HLT and for my boiler.

SO - I had in mind a 70L version of this cocotte:

http://cgi.ebay.fr/50-L-MARMITE-COCOTTE ... 2c5bfe302d

...to use for both my HLT and my boiler. However, would the Thermos version be better for either stage of my brewery?

http://cgi.ebay.fr/MARMITE-THERMOS-CAPA ... 2c5c25a1a0

ALSO - I am having an electrically-heated HLT and gas-fired kettle, but don't know what the best elements will be for my HLT. Can anyone recommend elements that are EASY for a newbie DIY numpty to fit with a bit of research? Or someone that can do a conversion?

All help would be very much appreciated!

 

[keith1664]

Might I suggest that you nail down a budget and take things from there?

Yes the thermos will be better (electrically heated), but it's 2 1/2 times more expensive than the stockpot and is of no use as a gas fired boiler!

Some people swear by Backer water heater elements, but I bought 4 kettles to cannibalise for their elements for the price of one.

How much do you want to spend and what do you want to achieve?

 

[keith1664]

Also... you did post a very similar thread last night!

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15179

 

[periolus]

Ummm......yes.....apparently! I forgot I had done that - sorry! Please go with this most recent thread!

 

[keith1664]

So whats the budget and how much are you capable of doing yourself?

 

[Aleman]

If you have the money Then go for the thermobox conversions for HLT and Mash tun . . .Shame they don't do a 100L thermobox, but for gas fired then you have to go down the Stainless pan route . . .although it depends on what final brew length you want to get out of it.

What I've found with the Thermobox brewery is that they are very efficient only needing one 3KW element to do the job.

Kettle elements will work (2.2KW) but the nice thing about the backer elements is that they are 3 KW and if going for a single element build in a thermobox those are the ones I'd have.

Through Floor Mounted expensive (31 quid) but handy . . .You can get Burco Spares cheaper off eBay difficult to fit a hop filter as well but fine for a HLT
- 19 quid only requires 2 13mm holed in inner wall to mount but does require a box mounting on/through the outer wall as per my conversion. Easy to fit a hop stopper
[url=http://www.heatingelementcompany.co.uk/default.asp?Product=220]Burco type 21 quid difficult to use one of these in a boiler as its hard to get a hop filter to fit . . .but fine for a HLT.

Must admit that I would love to have the time to do conversions for people, but I could see that it would rapidly eat up all available time, for very little reward

 

[periolus]

The budget is a hard one really, but here are my 'known' costs, if you like:

70L Cocotte x 2 = c.£90
50Qt Coleman coolbox = £50
Propane burner (can't remember the make) = £30

I will also need all my plumbing bits, ball valves, piping etc. - plus loads of copper for an immersion chiller. In total, I am budgeting for about £325. I have seen some cam disconnect systems on Youtube that look very nifty, but don't know if that is getting a bit too pricey. I think I get drawn in by shiny and not the financial limitations!

What can I do myself? I am not a terribly practical bloke, but to be honest I think it is a mental block. I have always been s***e at DIY but then when we bought our own house, I researched floor restoration, as it was something always wanted to try, and then did a really, really good job at restoring the floors throughout the house. If I look into it, and prepare well then I can do it.

I have never drilled much at all, and that was mostly into wood so drilling into a steel pot with a cobalt bit will be a first. I will need to borrow a drill, but reckon I can borrow bits and Q-bolts too. What I am NOT confident with at the moment is fitting elements, but again if I keep researching and getting useful info then I will probably be okay. I need to know more about what type of element to get (would like a single element if possible - up to 3kW maximum).

One final consideration is sparging and I am likely to go with the fly-sparging method.

My setup is most likely to be 3-tier gravity fed, so won't need to shell out on expensive pumps,but if the space in the garage calls for it, then I may need to go single-tier - I won't know that until next week.

 

[periolus]

Aleman - we overlapped! If you fancy a pilot run at doing conversions to see how it goes then drop me a line!!! :lol:

Seriously though, thanks for the advice. Thermobox - that's a cool box / food storage box, is that right? Are they easy to convert?How do they rate against Coleman Extreme Coolboxes?

There's a shed-load to think about with this isn't there!! Once I have my pots and coolbox I can at least get some work done and out of the way. I will learn lots of new skills too - like soldering properly and giving myself proper burns to large areas of my body :thumb:

Bring it on!

 

[keith1664]

By thermobox Aleman means the marmite thermos you linked to. At £80 (ish) personally I'd go for that rather than your £50 plastic coolbox.
For your £325 budget you could probably manage a 3 stainless pot brewery, but you'd be doing the work yourself.

I've recently gone the 3 pot route, my thinking being that they wouldn't need upgrading and I'd be saving money in the longer term to spend on other bits!

 

[periolus]

This is probably a really stupid question, but what is the major advantage of the Thermobox over something like the Coleman Extreme Coolbox? Is the Thermobox much more temperature stable?

My reason for going for the Coleman was that the conversion is really quite easy for someone like me that still fears drilling holes in steel pots!! There is a video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftY_HZAFJFc

HOWEVER! If I am going to drill holes in my HLT, then why not my MT? Hee-hee! Let's see about budget over the coming weeks. I have just been made redundant so need to watch how much I am spending on stuff. My birthday is in 3 weeks though, so my luck might change :

How hard is it to convert a Thermobox? Are there any 'how to' threads or videos?

Oh! One more cheeky question - how do you make a false bottom in a Mash Tun - both for the round pot and the cubic Coleman?

----POST EDIT----

Ah! I have just found out that the 50L Thermobox would be £81 versus the Coleman 48L cool box at £53, so the price difference isn't too bad.

Thanks for the tips gents - please keep the information and wisdom coming!

 

[Aleman]

Aleman - we overlapped! If you fancy a pilot run at doing conversions to see how it goes then drop me a line!!! :lol:

You are seriously trying to get me into trouble :lol: . . .She would kill me if I converted any more pots :nono: :nono: . . . . That and the fact that I have been converting an 80L thermobox into a mash tun since September . . . .

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2007

Seriously though, thanks for the advice. Thermobox - that's a cool box / food storage box, is that right? Are they easy to convert?How do they rate against Coleman Extreme Coolboxes?

These are the thermoboxes I was Talking About. I have built a 18L pilot plant using a pair of 38.5L for the Boiler and HLT and a pair of 24.5L for the Mash Tun and Fermenter. There is not a lot to say about them really, they are robust (as long as you don't drop them), and will last forever. I wouldn't go for the Tapped version again, although fitting a ball valve to them is pretty simple . . . unless like me you want to complicate things. As for comparison against the coleman cool boxes I don't know I've never had one, but will never go back to a plastic cool box again. . . .Thermoboxes are the right shape :thumb: circular not square or rectangular, making fitting false bottoms and rotating sparge arms easy. Yes there is a price premium but it is so very much worth it for the shiny :whistle: :whistle:

70L Cocotte x 2 = c.£90
50Qt Coleman coolbox = £50
Propane burner (can't remember the make) = £30

If it was me I would go with
70L Thermobox for the HLT
50L Thermobox for the mash tun
If you are determined to go down the gas route than a
70L Stainless Pot (None currently on sale at Catering service france)
although I would consider electric as you can brew in an enclosed space, and with my TB system what I have found is that the pots are that efficient that all the energy is used to heat the water and the heating times agrees with the calculators pretty much spot on. Gas by its nature wastes a lot of heat up the sides - To take 60L of water from 15C to 72C using a 3KW element will take 80 minutes - put the HLT on a timer with a thermostat overnight and Job done.
Alternative boiler using 70L Thermobox

There's a shed-load to think about with this isn't there!! Once I have my pots and coolbox I can at least get some work done and out of the way

Oh Yeah. While the Thermoboxes may well stretch you budget you will get a nice shiny brewery in the process :lol:and personally I think that they are better quality and value for money than the bog standard pots. . . . Nadine / Anna might very well do a deal on postage if you bought three at once . . .When I bought my 50 and 6L tB's recently I only got charged an extra euro for shipping. . . . The pots are easier to bodge into boilers etc with kettle elements . . . personally I won't bodge anything where water and electricity mix or have the potential for mixing.

 

[periolus]

Aleman, this is ace! I have just watched your vid on changing the tap and that will be fine for my skill set

Do you also have a video or walkthrough for the drilling of the holes for the elements? I would be happy to put one element in my HLT if it was powerful enough - I know you can get 2.5kW and 2.7kW (and possibly 3kW?) for a single hole, but the pig-tail elements need two 13mm holes, is that right? What would you recommend for a single-element configuration for a newbie to DIY stuff? Through the bottom, so to speak , or at the side? Also, do you have any info on the height that the holes need to be at or anything? For an HLT I guess it isn't as important as there will be no false bottom or anything in there.

Any links to walkthroughs or videos elsewhere would be very useful.

I am now sold on the Thermobox idea - they look ace and they are obviously very, very well built.


------EDIT------

Oh! How does it work having a thermobox as a fermenter? Does the lid close in an 'airtight' way? Did you have to drill an airlock into it?

 

[Aleman]

For an HLT I guess it isn't as important as there will be no false bottom or anything in there.[/url]
For my HLT I went through teh bottom and put a swan water boiler element in there . . . similar to a Burco type that I linked to earlier . . . It was one large hole and then 5 or 6 smaller holes for the bolts to hold it in place. . . . I have a link to a good seller of Cobalt drills on eBay somewhere (Think it's UKDrills . . . won't buy anywhere else) . . . Holesaws are different though

Any links to walkthroughs or videos elsewhere would be very useful.

I have some photographs that show how I built one of two bits, that I have never got through putting into walk through. . . .There is a Howto on fitting a bottom drain for a mash tun.

How does it work having a thermobox as a fermenter? Does the lid close in an 'airtight' way? Did you have to drill an airlock into it?

Works fine . . . wouldn't bother fitting a Sight gauge to one as I did though . . .while handy cleaning and sanitising is a PITA . . . In fact I wouldn't fit a sight gauge to any of them (in a one level setup) and just use a stainless dip stick to measure volumes. . . . I just sit the lid on teh vessel . . .it doesn't seal airtight unless locked down . . .no need for a airlock

 

[periolus]

Aleman - the floor mounted ones, does that require a hole drilled right through both walls of the Thermobox for an HLT? Then just the tap change and away, yes?

If the element is floor mounted though, I would just have to stand the HLT on a base of some sort that allowed the cable to come down and clear the rig - ??? Am I thinking along the right lines?

Can I just ask at this stage how you fit a false bottom into a thermobox mash tun? Is that easy?

I am SOOOO drawn to a thermobox fermenter - and a very handy size, it's just the price - £50 or so dearer than the plastic equivalent!!


One more question! Can I use one of the cocottes (70L) as a boiler if I go electric, or would I need to use a thermobox? I wanted to use gas because I thought it would be cheaper and I will have gas on site anyway, as we are getting a gas bbq. Am I just not thinking straight?! If electric is better then I can do that, but would need steering as to how to fit the filters/bottoms around the element etc.

Ta!

 

[periolus]

Ah! Further to my reply above, I have just remembered the main reason why I might have trouble with an electric boiler in my setup - I only have a 20A breaker on my garage spur, which means I can only run 4.5kW - at a push too - as I also have an upright freezer in there, and that will be drawing at least 1A. To be safe, I would limit it to 4.25kW.

The question then would be, are there any SINGLE elements that exceed 3kW, or can you recommend two 2kW elements that would be suitable. I assume that 4kW (or up to 4.25kW) is adequate to drive the boiler and achieve a rolling boil in a 70L pot? Any ideas?

If not, then I will be looking at propane for the last stage - in a garage with the door open, or at least the side door, this should be fine. The roof is also about 1/3 inch off the walls all the way round to provide a natural airflow anyway.


------EDIT--------

Okay - I should slow down before I post! I notice Tesco do a 2.2kW kettle for £5! Can I take two elements out of these cheapy chappies and put them into a pot to make a boiler? This would stay within my limits pulling 18.3A. Would the elements last long though, seeing as they are so ridiculously cheap? I don't want to have to replace them after a few weeks!!

 

[Aleman]

Aleman - the floor mounted ones, does that require a hole drilled right through both walls of the Thermobox for an HLT? Then just the tap change and away, yes?

Correct . . . No matter where you put an element you have to drill / cut a larger hole in the outer wall, before fitting the element to the inner wall.

If the element is floor mounted though, I would just have to stand the HLT on a base of some sort that allowed the cable to come down and clear the rig - ??? Am I thinking along the right lines?

Sort off. What I did with mine was to drill a 54mm hole in the outer base, using a hole saw, than the appropriate size hole was drilled through the inner base . . . and the element fitted. . . . What I then did was to drill a hole in the side wall,right through to the element, and ran the cable through that so it comes out the side.

Can I just ask at this stage how you fit a false bottom into a thermobox mash tun? Is that easy?

This is how I did my 50L tun

I am SOOOO drawn to a thermobox fermenter - and a very handy size, it's just the price - £50 or so dearer than the plastic equivalent!!

The cocottes also make neat fermenters as well though . . . I've been using a 100L one for a while until I replaced it with my Conical.

Can I use one of the cocottes (70L) as a boiler if I go electric, or would I need to use a thermobox? I wanted to use gas because I thought it would be cheaper and I will have gas on site anyway, as we are getting a gas bbq. Am I just not thinking straight?! If electric is better then I can do that, but would need steering as to how to fit the filters/bottoms around the element etc.

It's your choice really, I use gas for my big rig, but have a shroud around it to help transfer the heat . . .I brew outside . . . . The small plant I went down the electric route, and 3KW is more than adequate

I notice Tesco do a 2.2kW kettle for £5! Can I take two elements out of these cheapy chappies and put them into a pot to make a boiler? This would stay within my limits pulling 18.3A. Would the elements last long though, seeing as they are so ridiculously cheap? I don't want to have to replace them after a few weeks!!

It is easy to bodge a boiler with the kettle elements, I have no idea how reliable they are, as I used different elements . . .You just need to make a 38mm hole to fit the element . . .and use some sort of shroud to prevent wort / water coming into contact with the connections

This is how I fitted the3KW pigtail element into my boiler

 

[keith1664]

Just a word in defence of the kettle elements, they don't have to be "bodged", you can do quite a tidy fit. In fact I borrowed an idea from Aleman for mine.

Also, yes, kettle elements aren't designed to be operated at boiling point for an hour an a half. But you could also argue that much as a water heater element is designed to be used continuously, it's not meant to be used at boiling point.

 

[periolus]

That conversion looks amazing! I don't know if I could do that without serious practice on something else first though! The hole that's left on the inside - do you screw something into that, like a T-piece and manifold to filter the wort away from the grain? What is that part called that extends from the base down to the first elbow?

I must admit, I think the Coolbox conversion is going to be more suitable for my lack of practical skills. Perhaps I can start with that and then move on to shiney MT once I have practiced working with metal more. I'll give it some thought.

Bewildered I am!

Aleman - just out of interest, you mention in the video on the Effin website (the one about the tap conversion) that you don't like the custom nipple that comes with Thermobox taps - is there an alternative available, or is the one supplied alright for HLT use?