What are the down sides of using old ingredients?

[Tom Parsons]

Hi all,
I have just had a failed brew. A Tiny Rebel Cwtch kit got contaminated and needs to be thrown away.

I was going to move onto all grain next, but I want to ensure I can ferment something first! At the start of the summer I bought a couple of tins of LME and was going to use those for a trial brew after giving EVERYTHING a good clean and soak in beech/vinegar.

I also plan to add some hops that were opened 5 months ago and stored in airtight containers in a fridge since.

I'm not expecting this beer to taste great, I simply want to avoid the rubber/vinegar flavor of the last batch and want to convince myself I've fixed the source of contamination before stepping up.

Other than darker beer and homebrew twang from older LME, and possible underwhelming hop character from old hops, are there other reasons to bin what I have and buy new ingredients?

Thanks

 

[Covrich]

First of all I think its good to get straight back on the horse and get on with another. The ingredients you mention will probably be fine and make something acceptable (especially if they are pellet hops) . Like you say get something palatable first and you know that bit you have dialled in

One thing you soaked everything in beech (assume bleach) and vinegar? I am guessing that is a home made no rinse sanitiser

IF you believe your brew was contaminated I would go full sterilasation. You may have done this already but I thought it would be better to make sure you have that down first otherwise any brew you do could be going down the drain.

 

[Tom Parsons]

Thanks Covrich.

The Bleach and vinegar thing comes from here;
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/bleach-and-vinegar-sanatising.57298/

and here;
https://beerliever.com/bleach-no-rinse-sanitiser-home-brewing-beer/

I have been using this;
https://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Rinse-Free-Steriliser-200g-100344.html

I've very open to other methods I should consider to sterilise my plastic fermentation bucket etc.

 

[AdeDunn]

I just read the beerliever link, and sorry but the guy is talking out of his proverbial telling folks to use bleach and vinegar as a no rinse sanitiser. BOTH leave flavours behind, and using them together is only going to make the problem worst IMHO. The bleach is especially going to create problems if used before fermentation, as chlorine traces are going to end up getting in there and creating those lovely elsatoplast medicinal flavours so unpopular with us brewers.... Just try not rinsing VWP enough, or even not removing the chlorine from tap water before brewing some time (which contains a fraction of the chlorine than will be left behind by that mixture) and you'll get that "delicious" medicinal off flavour. The gods alone know how he's not getting it, UNLESS he's chucking in campden tablet at some point to remove the chlorine or something.

As discussed in that thread you linked to, you need to be rinsing if you're using any kind of chlorine based product, and rinsing well at that. If you don't, you are going to get pretty nasty off flavours, trust me on that.

If you want nuclear option no rinse, the usual go to is iodine. Or if you want the not so nuclear option, then you can use Star San to sanitise just before you use the equipment (I clean with sodium percarbonate and give it a rinse, sanitise just before I use it).

I'm not saying you can't use bleach, I'm just saying you can't use it no rinse.... lol Terrible idea.

 

[Tom Parsons]

Thanks - starting to go off the idea of the bleach approach now!

Do you think a clean followed by a soak in the Sodium percarboante based stuff I have from the home brew shop (see link in my last post) should do? If I need more chemicals I can't get from Tesco, I want to order them very soon.

 

[Mavroz]

Just use Percarbonate for cleaning and get yourself some Starsan for Sanitising/Sterilising.
All i ever use and had no issues over my first 10/11 brews.

 

[-Bezza-]

Have a look at this post for info on cleaners and sterilisers: https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...iser-cleanersanitizer-hell.74909/#post-724010

Personally, I use VWP for cleaning and sterilising all plastics and give it a spray with starsan immediately before use. VWP should be avoided on stainless steel if possible, or used infrequently and for short contact time. I also have some Sodium Percarbonate but I'm not all that impressed with it so far (although I realise I'm in the minority on that one).

 

[AdeDunn]

I'm surprised to be honest that they're selling sodium percarbonate as steriliser, although in theory it does turn into sodium carbonate and peroxide bleach when you add it to water (hence it get's sold as oxygen bleach) so no idea if it actually does work as a sanitiser. I buy it in bulk on ebay, and user it as a CLEANER (as contrary to the articles about using it as sanitiser, it's a really effective cleaner when combined with hot water and a soft sponge) rather than as a sanitiser, and rinse it off as it leaves a white residue on everything.....

So basically I:-

Clean with hot water and sodium percarbonate

Sanitise with Starsan using a spray bottle

I've found this incredibly effective. If you get an infection , you may want to go nuclear on suspect equipment with diluted thin bleach, rinse it really really well, before returning it to your normal cleaning cycle. The rest of the time, percarb and Starsan works like a dream.

 

[Bigcol49]

Hi!

I'm not saying you can't use bleach, I'm just saying you can't use it no rinse

I hate to disagree with anyone on this forum, but I use bleach/vinegar as a no-rinse sanitiser and get no flavours left behind. I have had no problems with infection and always get good beer and wine. Any suggestion that it can't be used as a no-rinse sanitiser is unreasonable.
It is very easy to criticise something if you haven't tried it. I don't think Charlie Talley, inventor of Star San, would be ignorant about effective sanitisation.
One word of warning, @Tom Parsons - US bleach is stronger than UK bleach. To get 80ppm I use 25ml cheap thin bleach in 3125ml water followed by 5ml distilled vinegar.

 

[AdeDunn]

You disagree with people on here all of the time Col, so that's not true. Heck you've disagreed with me many many many times.... You can disagree all you like, but both chlorine bleach, and vinegar, are known to leave a lingering flavour behind. Just because you personally are blind to this doesn't mean that this isn't true, it just means your taste buds are blind to it. Much like some people are happy using normal sugar to prime with, whilst some of us hate the green apple flavour it produces.... I actually quit using VWP, because no matter how many times I rinsed I could still taste, and smell, the chlorine, because I am hyper sensitive to both the smell and flavour of chlorine products!

You'll be saying next that chlorine doesn't create off flavours during fermentation....

So, this is one where we are going to have to agree to disagree, and another example of YMMV.

 

[chthon]

You are a Terry Pratchett fan too?

 

[Mavroz]

I'm surprised to be honest that they're selling sodium percarbonate as steriliser, although in theory it does turn into sodium carbonate and peroxide bleach when you add it to water (hence it get's sold as oxygen bleach) so no idea if it actually does work as a sanitiser. I buy it in bulk on ebay, and user it as a CLEANER (as contrary to the articles about using it as sanitiser, it's a really effective cleaner when combined with hot water and a soft sponge) rather than as a sanitiser, and rinse it off as it leaves a white residue on everything.....

So basically I:-

Clean with hot water and sodium percarbonate

Sanitise with Starsan using a spray bottle

I've found this incredibly effective. If you get an infection , you may want to go nuclear on suspect equipment with diluted thin bleach, rinse it really really well, before returning it to your normal cleaning cycle. The rest of the time, percarb and Starsan works like a dream.

Mix a little citric acid in with your percarbonate solution and the white residue will be no more.... I use this when cleaning and de-labelling pub bottles and no longer get the residue i used to get, nor do I get it on my stainless gear or my Fv's.

 

[Mavroz]

Oh and i also agree that a bleach/vinegar mix imho does leave a distinct after smell to the plastics it comes into contact with. Have noticed in the past when I was experimenting even at the smallest concentrations.

 

[Tom Parsons]

Thanks all.
I've ordered some Star San. My plan is to start with a bleach vinegar soak, then rinse, then clean with percarboante, then spray with Star San! Figured I might as well do the lot.

 

[foxbat]

My fermenter is stainless so no bleach for me. I dangle one of these UVC lamps in, put the lid on and take myself out of the room for 15 minutes (UVC is dangerous). When I come back all I do is slosh around with Starsan and I'm done.

 

[Mavroz]

Thanks all.
I've ordered some Star San. My plan is to start with a bleach vinegar soak, then rinse, then clean with percarboante, then spray with Star San! Figured I might as well do the lot.

Forget the bleach and vinegar...
You are a just putting another in unnecessary step in that could create complications.
Just soak and clean with Percarbonate then sterilise/sanitize with starsan.

 

[mathorp]

What an interesting discussion! I had not realised that sanitising is such a passionate topic. My tuppenny worth to add:
1. I avoid sanitisers that do not come clean (ahem) on what the ingredients are. This is partly a safety concern I have had beaten into me at work.
2. Once I know what the ingredients are I avoid those with chlorine - not just because of the need to rinse afterwards, but because much of my gear is stainless steel and the combination is not a good one. I also try to minimise the chlorine going down the drain.
3. Some stuff can be sterilised without any chemicals using boiling water. I heat up my left over sparge water and leave various sieves and cheesecloth filters sitting in the water or in the steam above it.

My personal practice is:
a) remove all visible dirt with elbow grease (and brewer's detergent, but only if necessary).
b) rinse with tap water to remove any dirty water or detergent
c) rinse with a percarbonate style steriliser at the last minute

 

[Tom Parsons]

Quick update - I bottled the brew last night and it's looking good - it's clear and straw coloured. I have high hopes I've successfully removed my source of infection.