welcome to wales.

[Leon103]

Police do their job, public complain. Police do nothing, public complain. Poor police.
As for the 20mph zone, great. Let's save life's, rather that than get to my destination a few minutes earlier. Of course like any speed limit, not many pay attention.

 

[sifty]

Here in NZ we've got a new government who have pledged to remove the frankly silly low speed limits that were put in place in certain areas by the last mob.

Nobody minds low speeds around schools or high risk areas, but when 10kms of open road are changed to 60kmh for no discernable reason it can only be seen as a punitive money grab.

Stupid laws will be ignored and create mistrust.

 

[Clarence]

Eight changes in two miles is crazy i wonder if one of the council has shares in a road sign company

One 30mph stretch in the village just outside Cowbridge is 520ft (160m) and each new road sign costs £1,000 to fit.

That was my first thought, too, Chippy. I think it's obvious that somebody's on the make.

 

[Clarence]

it's just motorist bashing, plain and simple. Left wing governments always do this. Look for Labour to do similar after the next election.

What complete drivel you chunter. This is a forum for fascists, now, is it? Hope you're enjoying the last days of the present lot!

Human greed, cronyism and every other abuse of power is rife across the entire political spectrum as I'm sure you'll come to realise with a few more years of mature observation.

 

[hoppyscotty]

ok, I will bite - do you have an example of a current labour policy that could be described as "far right" ?

Can you have an example of one Labout policy? I have 4 volumes of good intentions but yet to hear of a policy.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Actually right now I cant even think of one right wing conservative policy let alone a far right one

 

[DCBC]

thanks for responding, even though our political instincts are clearly very different I agree with a lot of this. Certainly the part that the main parties are largely identikit.

Your reference to the POB is interesting. As in my experience those who have spoken up the most for liberty and free speech in the last few years are those who have traditionally been seen as "far right". Ironically this may be a point that the libertarian right and the hard left agree on.

As for your other examples all I will say is the root of this seems to be that people have very different definitions of the "centre ground".

Nevertheless, I will still predict with confidence that labour will soak the motorist even more than the Tories. Sadiq Khan being a case in point.

Thanks for your own reply! I love a good debate, even if (sometimes, especially if) I feel like my views are in the minority within a community.

I am ultimately minded to agree with you on Labour on motorists, if only because they don't seem to have waded into the manufactured culture war on the side of motorists and meat-eaters, as Sunak seems to have done. Having said that, I don't rule it out at all. Tories are going to set all sorts of traps for Labour in the next 12 months and they will inevitably end up having to take more conservative positions than their core membership would be comfortable with, in order to secure the support of swing voters.

 

[DCBC]

Actually right now I cant even think of one right wing conservative policy let alone a far right one

You can't think of a right-wing Conservative policy? This Conservative party? I am missing context for which I apologise, but do you think they are not being right-wing enough?

 

[MattH1973]

What complete drivel you chunter. This is a forum for fascists, now, is it? Hope you're enjoying the last days of the present lot!

Human greed, cronyism and every other abuse of power is rife across the entire political spectrum as I'm sure you'll come to realise with a few more years of mature observation.

Ah yes, the traditional tone and language of the left wing (and often media) elite...... calling those who disagree with you "fascists" - by your measure that would mean a large portion of the western world are "fascists". I hate to break it to you Clarence, but some people just disagree with you and that is what democracy is all about. It is funny that those on the right disagree with left wing "drivel" [to use your insulting word] but respect their right to believe it - as I respect yours. Too often those on the left seem to hate the views of those who disagree with them, and revert to cheap insults like "drivel" "fascist" and "immature".

Perhaps with a few more years of "mature observation" you will be able to point to a democracy that has prospered based on the views you advocate ?

Can we assume New Zealand has elected a "fascist" government simply because they are reversing some of the policies of (your doubtless beloved) Jacinda ? [thanks to the poster who pointed this out]

Edit - I actually agree with you that greed, cronyism and abuse of power are a huge issue across the political spectrum - plenty of left and right wing governments demonstrate this. But the implication that hard left policies are the answer (only the hard left refers to ordinary people as "fascists") is absurd - look at Venezuela. Nicolas Maduro was Corbyn's poster boy and that hasn't worked out too well....but I suspect you will need a few more years of "mature observation" to get your head around that......

 

[Clarence]

Hahaha. This from the one who has just posted his views on labour, with massive generalisations and predictions of great certainty. Read your post again and look in the mirror my lad.
But the elephant in the room is "motorist bashing". Many motorists take your view that they are victims. Nothing wrong with motoring, but the planet can no longer sustain it. All rich countries could, by now, have invested in public transport networks beyond our wildest dreams, but that wouldn't suit their paymasters, the oil barons, Arab princes and multi-billionaires with their feet in the fossil fuel trough. No government or political leaning is really doing anything about this because greed rules supreme. It's not as if we're even starting to address this problem and electric cars is just smoke and mirrors. Just see what happens at the present COP.
This is where your efforts should be placed if you really want some kind of world for your kids and grandkids because otherwise you and the rest of us motorist victims will leave them nothing.
And where are the fossil fuel apologists and the climate change deniers? The knobs who fly to a COP in individual private jets? Oh, yes. They're all lefties! Give me a break!

I've got two cars, by the way, but I only drive one at a time so I consider myself a green lefty.

As for NZ. I don't know enough about NZ, but why did one of the most tolerant people in Europe give their vote to Geert Wilders? Why did the salt of the earth which is England vote for brexit? I fear the answer is psychological as much as political.

 

[MattH1973]

If only you could drop the condescending tone "my lad" you would realise we actually agree on some things. I certainly agree with you that those who fly to COP on private jets whilst telling the rest of us not to eat meat or go on holiday are hypocrites of the worst kind. But I respectfully beg to differ (and you might just need to accept that this is because of what I believe, and not because I lack your apparent vast cornucopia of life experience) as follows:
- my views on labour are not "massive generalisations" - they are based on what Khan and Drakeford (which is what started this thread) have actually done. Of course, we can always return to this thread a year after Starmer's inevitable victory and see if i was right....
- you seem to jumbling up the issues of public transport and fossil fuels, young man. Public transport needs energy too, and until we get serious about nuclear (another thing i hope we might agree on) a large portion of our energy generation will need to come from fossil fuels - the debate on how much of it we build is whether it is economically viable -where it is it reduces congestion and everyone wins. I commute to London quite a bit and find recent innovations like Thameslink and Crossrail a huge step forward. I only drive when the train drivers are on strike. As an aside, it we could automate the trains and do away with drivers there would be a nice environmental benefit, which I'm sure a sage life expert like you would agree with......
- there are many reasons why more public transport hasn't been built but the most common one is that there would be insufficient demand. Yes, a government could create demand by effectively banning cars but let's let a party put that in its manifesto and see if anyone would vote for it. I doubt they would. The argument that governments don't do this because of the fossil fuel lobby is pretty far fetched, little chap. The obvious reason is that people would never vote for this. They do vote for what is faster, efficient and economical - and in some cases it is public transport and in some cases not.
- I think you and I have discussed in the past that you may be right that this is because of inherent selfishness, but in a democracy it is hard to see a way around that. Who would be empowered to decide on policies that people couldn't vote for ? It would obviously never work.
- The solution for your side of the debate, therefore, is surely to try and convince the rest of us. Being so condescending, and calling people "fascists" is an interesting strategy in trying to achieve that. Keep us informed on how it goes, but FWIW you are not convincing me......if you really want a better world for your kids and grandkids, then maybe you should change tack ?

 

[chthon]

As for NZ. I don't know enough about NZ, but why did one of the most tolerant people in Europe give their vote to Geert Wilders? Why did the salt of the earth which is England vote for brexit? I fear the answer is psychological as much as political.

Indeed psychological. Right wing parties in Belgium and Holland used to have more support in cities, but the trend has been reversed. More support from the country side, where there are (almost) no problems with immigrants, and less support in the cities, where people actually live together in a melting pot.

 

[hoppyscotty]

You can't think of a right-wing Conservative policy? This Conservative party? I am missing context for which I apologise, but do you think they are not being right-wing enough?

No the've abandoned their traditional core values which is why they're doing so poorly...amongst a gluttony of other absolute f-ups and miscalculations - and the incompetent donkeys who are in charge - but to be fair most politician from all parties are donkeys these days...I wouldn't employ a single one of them. What have they ACTUALLY done or implemented that could be considered as far right or even traditionally right wing?...raising of taxes? shafting small businesses and penalising those who work hard? making a complete hash of managing the economy? all these are left wing/Labour traits not tory traits and all under a Tory government.

There is a demonisation of right wing thinking and politics that has gained traction over the years and as a result the tories have swung more to the left...not left wing, but more towards left and maybe in some areas left of centre. Maybe this is a ploy to try to push labour more to towards the extreme left (basically the Tony Blair strategy but in reverse), but we cant tell if that is succeeding due to lack of announced labour policies and internal fighting within Labour.

As for 20mph speed limits...outside schools yes...elsewhere it's an utter tragedy. it wont save one life any more than it will save the planet - I've driven quite a bit in Wales and they hardly stick out as being the nations most dangerous roads so if road safety is the excuse then you're being duped. Don't be neive and fall for it.

 

[MattH1973]

Indeed psychological. Right wing parties in Belgium and Holland used to have more support in cities, but the trend has been reversed. More support from the country side, where there are (almost) no problems with immigrants, and less support in the cities, where people actually live together in a melting pot.

Sorry Clarence, I missed this bit of your post. I think it is quite clear why votes are springing up for more right wing parties - it is happening here too with Reform UK and Richard Tice - the reason is obviously that they feel the ruling elites have abandoned them. When these elites assert that various leftist ideas are actually centre ground, it is a logical response for people to look for a party that actually represents their views. This is actually a case in point that these elites need to do a much better job of convincing people - simply hurling insults and rubbishing people they disagree with just wont cut it.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Wow not bad for a 20mph thread, think it is time for a beer

 

[DCBC]

No the've abandoned their traditional core values which is why they're doing so poorly...amongst a gluttony of other absolute f-ups and miscalculations - and the incompetent donkeys who are in charge - but to be fair most politician from all parties are donkeys these days...I wouldn't employ a single one of them. What have they ACTUALLY done or implemented that could be considered as far right or even traditionally right wing?...raising of taxes? shafting small businesses and penalising those who work hard? making a complete hash of managing the economy? all these are left wing/Labour traits not tory traits and all under a Tory government.

There is a demonisation of right wing thinking and politics that has gained traction over the years and as a result the tories have swung more to the left...not left wing, but more towards left and maybe in some areas left of centre. Maybe this is a ploy to try to push labour more to towards the extreme left (basically the Tony Blair strategy but in reverse), but we cant tell if that is succeeding due to lack of announced labour policies and internal fighting within Labour.

As for 20mph speed limits...outside schools yes...elsewhere it's an utter tragedy. it wont save one life any more than it will save the planet - I've driven quite a bit in Wales and they hardly stick out as being the nations most dangerous roads so if road safety is the excuse then you're being duped. Don't be neive and fall for it.

This started off as a short reply. Sorry

I wouldn't confuse incompetence and greed with an unwillingness to implement right-wing policy. There has been, and increasingly will be, a strong desire to pander to ultra-conservative values to get them out of a sticky political situation caused, admittedly, by that same incompetence and greed.

I think for a start the various freedom-curbing spy cop and public order bills, and the Rwanda deportation policies (so catastrophically inhuman they can't get approved on legal grounds) are clear, inarguable, evidence of recent right-wing policy.

Now, one might argue that true conservatism is libertarianism and therefore the curbing of free speech and civil liberties isn't inherently right-wing, which is definitely an argument I would have sympathy with. The problem is that libertarianism can only go so far, can only funnel wealth and privilege in one direction so far, until the capitalist system sucks everything out of the tank and it running on fumes. That's when the state gets co-opted by business interests to give them a helping hand whilst distracting increasingly disenfranchised citizens by making them look elsewhere: a traitorous enemy within. Jews, lefties, people who identify as a gender other than that assigned at birth, etc, etc. There are numerous books and other media about the numerous German and US companies did very well out of their collaboration with the leadership of 1930s and 1940s Germany. Some of them are major players today because of it.

This cycle happens every few generations and it's called fascism. I don't throw this term around glibly or as an insult, it's the definition of what happens when there isn't enough capital to go around to support capitalism. The lectures of Professor Richard Wolff are extremely illuminating and eloquent when it comes to understanding this phenomenon. We are extremely close to this tipping point again.

I don't actually believe that there is anything particularly right-wing about fascism. Nor do I think there is a particular desire amongst conservative, traditional right-win politicians themselves, to actually implement it. The problem is that it tends, certainly in Western 'democracies', to be the creation of the very business interests who back the libertarian politicians, both with campaign funds, outright bribes, and by helping tip the scales towards their parties of choice with their outright dominance of the print media. It's the same political classes who helped them out for decades who are happy to go the extra mile whenever they are asked - because incrementally it's no big deal. It's only when you take a step back and notice that, for example, wages in the US in the 1970s were comparatively higher (adjusted for inflation) than they are now, despite decades of many-fold corporate growth, that you realise what has been given up by the people we elect to represent us.

(It is no coincidence that almost every newspaper could be considered either conservative or extremely conservative, especially those with the highest readerships, and the mainstream paper considered to be the most left-wing, the Guardian, is really firmly centrist.)

So, profit margins need to be preserved. Growth needs to be maintained. Dividends to shareholders must continue. Once the owners of the capital push their pet politicians beyond the point where simple libertarianism can no longer help them, what can they do? There are limits to the extent to which you can deregulate - though Truss came quite close to finding this limit. All they can do is make politicians get creative about how they justify funnelling increasingly expensive (to the public purse) capital into the hands of those who already have the most.

And that's what we're being faced with now. People are being rabidly incited to pit themselves against each other on fabricated non issues like drivers vs non-drivers, 15-minute cities, invented meat taxes, gender-critical ideology. The list goes on. We need to ask ourselves why we are being encouraged by our political leaders to do so. It's no coincidence that it's got so bad now that, as I say, the economy is running on fumes.

We have been talking about right and left wing ideologies; but even as I type this I'm persuaded that they don't actually apply anymore. They work best as descriptors in a moderate, balance, unmolested (by big business) society where you can have a bit more right (e.g. more deregulation) or a bit more left (e.g. strong unions) of the sort we have not known for decades. Right and left cease to exist when you get close to the event horizon, which is where we are now. Governments (red and blue) have gone so far to the right that they are no longer making traditional left/right ideological choices, it's simply about survival in the face of being replaced, by their handlers, by people who will do what they are 'supposed' to if they won't.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Wow not bad for a 20mph thread, think it is time for a beer

Personally, there's a lot to be be heard from both sides of the political spectrum. 8 different speed limits in 2 miles or less is just stupidity whichever party is in power. Of course I suppose common sense may have left the building along with Elvis a lot time ago.

Why is there not a 'Pragmatic Party' I can vote for? It should be based on facts rather than ideology?

 

[MattH1973]

This started off as a short reply. Sorry

I wouldn't confuse incompetence and greed with an unwillingness to implement right-wing policy. There has been, and increasingly will be, a strong desire to pander to ultra-conservative values to get them out of a sticky political situation caused, admittedly, by that same incompetence and greed.

I think for a start the various freedom-curbing spy cop and public order bills, and the Rwanda deportation policies (so catastrophically inhuman they can't get approved on legal grounds) are clear, inarguable, evidence of recent right-wing policy.

Now, one might argue that true conservatism is libertarianism and therefore the curbing of free speech and civil liberties isn't inherently right-wing, which is definitely an argument I would have sympathy with. The problem is that libertarianism can only go so far, can only funnel wealth and privilege in one direction so far, until the capitalist system sucks everything out of the tank and it running on fumes. That's when the state gets co-opted by business interests to give them a helping hand whilst distracting increasingly disenfranchised citizens by making them look elsewhere: a traitorous enemy within. Jews, lefties, people who identify as a gender other than that assigned at birth, etc, etc. There are numerous books and other media about the numerous German and US companies did very well out of their collaboration with the leadership of 1930s and 1940s Germany. Some of them are major players today because of it.

This cycle happens every few generations and it's called fascism. I don't throw this term around glibly or as an insult, it's the definition of what happens when there isn't enough capital to go around to support capitalism. The lectures of Professor Richard Wolff are extremely illuminating and eloquent when it comes to understanding this phenomenon. We are extremely close to this tipping point again.

I don't actually believe that there is anything particularly right-wing about fascism. Nor do I think there is a particular desire amongst conservative, traditional right-win politicians themselves, to actually implement it. The problem is that it tends, certainly in Western 'democracies', to be the creation of the very business interests who back the libertarian politicians, both with campaign funds, outright bribes, and by helping tip the scales towards their parties of choice with their outright dominance of the print media. It's the same political classes who helped them out for decades who are happy to go the extra mile whenever they are asked - because incrementally it's no big deal. It's only when you take a step back and notice that, for example, wages in the US in the 1970s were comparatively higher (adjusted for inflation) than they are now, despite decades of many-fold corporate growth, that you realise what has been given up by the people we elect to represent us.

(It is no coincidence that almost every newspaper could be considered either conservative or extremely conservative, especially those with the highest readerships, and the mainstream paper considered to be the most left-wing, the Guardian, is really firmly centrist.)

So, profit margins need to be preserved. Growth needs to be maintained. Dividends to shareholders must continue. Once the owners of the capital push their pet politicians beyond the point where simple libertarianism can no longer help them, what can they do? There are limits to the extent to which you can deregulate - though Truss came quite close to finding this limit. All they can do is make politicians get creative about how they justify funnelling increasingly expensive (to the public purse) capital into the hands of those who already have the most.

And that's what we're being faced with now. People are being rabidly incited to pit themselves against each other on fabricated non issues like drivers vs non-drivers, 15-minute cities, invented meat taxes, gender-critical ideology. The list goes on. We need to ask ourselves why we are being encouraged by our political leaders to do so. It's no coincidence that it's got so bad now that, as I say, the economy is running on fumes.

We have been talking about right and left wing ideologies; but even as I type this I'm persuaded that they don't actually apply anymore. They work best as descriptors in a moderate, balance, unmolested (by big business) society where you can have a bit more right (e.g. more deregulation) or a bit more left (e.g. strong unions) of the sort we have not known for decades. Right and left cease to exist when you get close to the event horizon, which is where we are now. Governments (red and blue) have gone so far to the right that they are no longer making traditional left/right ideological choices, it's simply about survival in the face of being replaced, by their handlers, by people who will do what they are 'supposed' to if they won't.

really excellent post, thank you. Lockdown made me realise some key things - that true conservatism is indeed libertarianism - and therefore I agree with you on free speech. As an aside I also agree that unconstrained libertarianism doesn't work - a degree of socialism is needed for a whole bunch reasons some moral (looking after the most vulnerable in society) and some practical (communal arrangements on things like trains and refuse collection make complete sense). Of course, we often disagree on the degree of socialism required, and such is life.

The other thing lockdown made me realise, and your post was a real lightbulb moment here, is that there is a very real risk that our capitalist system will indeed run out of capital. That lockdown cost multiples of the 2008 financial crisis, and has left us facing some very difficult choices in the face of the cost of living crisis that the money printing caused. Net zero will cost (indeed, is costing) even more again and I have been worried for a while that this will be the straw that breaks the camels back. I need to read more on the history of what happens when capitalists run our of capital, but it is quite intuitive that it will be chaotic. Perhaps the rise of more right wing parties is the start of this.

Capitalism, growth and democracy isn't perfect, but a good case can be made that it is the least bad system in driving average quality of life. Those who advocate unsustainable spending should ponder what the end of capitalism might mean.

 

[Clarence]

Wow not bad for a 20mph thread, think it is time for a beer

Or ten/ It is POETS Day after all! Cheers everyone and mine's a pint of rosé if anyone's buying. (Good old Shane!)

 

[DCBC]

really excellent post, thank you. Lockdown made me realise some key things - that true conservatism is indeed libertarianism - and therefore I agree with you on free speech. As an aside I also agree that unconstrained libertarianism doesn't work - a degree of socialism is needed for a whole bunch reasons some moral (looking after the most vulnerable in society) and some practical (communal arrangements on things like trains and refuse collection make complete sense). Of course, we often disagree on the degree of socialism required, and such is life.

The other thing lockdown made me realise, and your post was a real lightbulb moment here, is that there is a very real risk that our capitalist system will indeed run out of capital. That lockdown cost multiples of the 2008 financial crisis, and has left us facing some very difficult choices in the face of the cost of living crisis that the money printing caused. Net zero will cost (indeed, is costing) even more again and I have been worried for a while that this will be the straw that breaks the camels back. I need to read more on the history of what happens when capitalists run our of capital, but it is quite intuitive that it will be chaotic. Perhaps the rise of more right wing parties is the start of this.

Capitalism, growth and democracy isn't perfect, but a good case can be made that it is the least bad system in driving average quality of life. Those who advocate unsustainable spending should ponder what the end of capitalism might mean.

It's refreshing - even genuinely touching, especially online, to have a conversation which started off with two people coming from two very different positions, bordering on antagonistic, ending up this way. You have given me plenty of food for thought too. Honestly, this debate has shaken me out of some of the dogma I had entrenched in me :)

If you are interested in the two fundamental (to me) but not commonly-held (yet, I hope!) ideas that I hold central to my personal political and economic thinking they are:

a.) That governments only try to balance the books as an excuse to get out of public spending they could afford all along as controllers and distributors of their own fiat currencies. The best introduction to this is the extremely readable The Deficit Myth by Stephanie Kelton

b.) that fascism isn't necessarily an ideological extension of right-wing politics, but it is the logical extension of the actions of the holders of capital to justify why there not enough left for the working classes. The short weekly podcast 'Economic Update' by Professor Wolff 'taught' me that.

Meanwhile there are numerous articles about how much the super rich own as a proportion of national and global pies, and the numbers are staggering (and getting more incredible).