Water addition question - soft Scottish water

[Sadfield]

analysis at source (water company)

My point was this will contain samples of domestic tap water, water companies test all over the place. There's a risk that samples you see as low alkalinity private tap water are just low alkalinity samples within the water companies data set. Another day they may have fit the average better or been at the other end of the spectrum.

https://www.unitedutilities.com/help-and-support/your-water-supply/your-water/testing-water-quality/
I'm always amused at the faith some homebrewers put in the one sample they send for analysis being the perfect specimen, often set in stone for eternity.

 

[peebee]

My point was this will contain samples of tap water, water companies test all over the place.

Will it? The water company reports I get are all from samples at the treatment works (at the base of the reservoir dam). Some more complex reports I've seen (eastern side of England) may specify several sampling points at different parts of the water company's properties.

Samples for private analysis are obviously even easier, from the tap of the person who bought the analysis!

 

[Sadfield]

The water company reports I get are all from samples at the treatment works

Are they? How do they test for down stream Lead? Or maintain tap water quality without testing tap water?

"We carry out extensive monitoring of the quality of water at our customers' taps to ensure that it complies with the regulatory standards"

 

[peebee]

I am working on that Spreadsheet as promised. This is how far I'm with it so far. Note: It is NOT another water calculator; I'm only fetching the six basic components for entering into a calculator. This is a screenshot; a working spreadsheet will come later:

If you can't fill the six basic boxes, descend into the "twilight zone" where (perhaps) you'll be able to fabricate credible figure for the missing values ... if you can get out of the twilight zone with your sanity intact

Work in progress (no guarantee I'll get it finished). This is what I would expect the "water calculator" authors to have done, but I think they all spent too long in the Twilight Zone and emerged intent on cramming all that "Hardness" tripe down our necks.


It'll also what that "request for information" was for:

I've had a bit of an Internet hunt about this: The dropping off of alkalinity levels the further you get from the treatment works.

I'm guessing it does happen (in "soft" waters treated to reduce acidity of the otherwise corrosive acid moorland water), but I'm not finding any writings on the subject that might "quantify" it. (@DocAnna's water reports have evidence of it, I've had evidence of it in my reports too).

Anyone do any better?



On a separate issue (but connected with what I'm trying to put together): Has anyone come across studies of "Nitrates" in water, i.e. the differences between remote, uninhabited, moorland water sources and sources in areas of intensive agriculture and habitation? Nitrate has little/no impact on brewing, but it is useful to assist assumptions of mineral amounts that can have a bearing on brewing (I'm talking of alkalinity again).

No info incoming yet. Can anyone help?

 

[MashBag]

I had the same from Anglian a couple of years back I telephoned them and asked for the missing figures they put me through to an analyst who gave me the numbers I required

I think we are really lucky in anglian region. The water is easy enough to get right. And they do answer the phone & help.

Until I started looking into water, I didn't realise how different it could be and how difficult. Also learnt why people bought bottled water.... you don't have to in the anglian region!

 

[peebee]

That spreadsheet I started on is about complete. It is not a water calculator! I call it a "Water Defuddler". It only outputs the basic 5+1 water ions arrived at with the minimum effort from a water report or test kits and doesn't require knowledge of arcane measures like "as CaCO3", or arcane technologies like "water hardness".

Contrary to the popular ideas of water chemistry, it's a piece-of-cake! All the arcane "water parameters" that we don't need, they hold all the deceiving complexities. Unfortunately, those arcane parameters are still put about by water companies, and in the worst examples mask the information we do need. This spreadsheet attempts to guide you through the clutter and leave you with the information you need (i.e. the six ion quantities with which you can use in a water calculator to build any brewing water profile you fancy ... I said "5+1 ions" above because the "+1" is "bicarbonate" which is picked out for two reasons ... one, 'cos I'm a geek, and two, 'cos it represents the "alkalinity").

Apologies first, I'm not posting the spreadsheet just yet, it might still need some fine tweaking, just some screenshots. Like all my spreadsheet creations, I do tend to endow them with some crazy features that ensure they don't look like spreadsheets!

The basic six water ions we're messing with, and with luck all six boxes can be filled in from the water report. If not, we descend into the "Foetid Mire" to find them. The example here is the one making up the OP of this thread ... it was missing the "bicarbonate" figure. The source of missing figure is the "Foetid Mire". Values are past to and from the Mire at the boundary manually so the Mire can't automatically infect the values you have already gleaned.

The sources of data used can be recorded here. The sources may not be updated very often, so this spreadsheet won't ever need wielding often either.

The Mire is split into "depths". And here, not too deep, is the instantly recognisable water "Hardness". But very few realise it is "Hardness" that is responsible for nearly all the complexity in water chemistry. It's awful companion "as CaCO3" is only there to add a huge dose of miscomprehension. Don't dwell too long here! Just copy in the figures it needs and don't worry at all what "as CaCO3" really means (what it "really means" is very likely very different to what you have believed in the past!).

The next layer down only wants "temporary hardness". Still looking for the elusive "bicarbonate". If you can't get it from this, hold your breath and sink deeper into the Mire.

Finally, we get "bicarbonate" and can return to the surface. Just the nitrate figure to feed in which can be a bit of a guess if necessary. All that alien stuff with "mEq/l" need be of no concern, it's done automatically. Get out now and leave all this arcane "Hardness" stuff in the stinking depths. A few minor warnings in the "less smelly" bit concerning "Alkalinity" which I may cover at a later date?

That is hopefully a decent introduction to the Defuddler, the finished spreadsheet will be along shortly.

 

[malhal]

No, I can't measure the pH, I usually add 100g of acid malt to the grain bill though

That will help with mash pH but you still need acid for the sparge water to bring it below 6. Otherwise you'll get a grainy tannic astringent dry woody taste common in Scottish IPAs, eg Skye Brewing, Fyne Ales, Fierce, Overtone...I could go on...

 

[peebee]

That will help with mash pH but you still need acid for the sparge water to bring it below 6. Otherwise you'll get a grainy tannic astringent dry woody taste common in Scottish IPAs, eg Skye Brewing, Fyne Ales, Fierce, Overtone...I could go on...

Perhaps, if the sparge water has high alkalinity. But there are augments against bothering to acidifying sparge water even for waters of high alkalinity. This was posted recently in a similar thread:

https://beerandgardeningjournal.com/acidify-sparge-water/
@Blinky's water is so low in alkalinity and if it's used as-is for sparging it will have no (or very little) effect on the mash being sparged. The sparge water hasn't enough umph to alter the pH of the mash. My own water is a very similar alkalinity. Just 1ml of 81% Phosphoric Acid drops the pH of 60 litres of this water from pH7.8 to <pH5.5 ... there is no point me bothering (but it does no harm, or I don't think it does, so I do it anyway!).

"Woody tastes" are the action of yeast, not astringency (which isn't a taste anyway). I'd really like to capture those "woody tastes" in my beer, but they remain elusive.

 

[malhal]

Perhaps, if the sparge water has high alkalinity. But there are augments against bothering to acidifying sparge water even for waters of high alkalinity. This was posted recently in a similar thread:

https://beerandgardeningjournal.com/acidify-sparge-water/
@Blinky's water is so low in alkalinity and if it's used as-is for sparging it will have no (or very little) effect on the mash being sparged. The sparge water hasn't enough umph to alter the pH of the mash. My own water is a very similar alkalinity. Just 1ml of 81% Phosphoric Acid drops the pH of 60 litres of this water from pH7.8 to <pH5.5 ... there is no point me bothering (but it does no harm, or I don't think it does, so I do it anyway!).

"Woody tastes" are the action of yeast, not astringency (which isn't a taste anyway). I'd really like to capture those "woody tastes" in my beer, but they remain elusive.

I believe the reason for the debate is some have a tongue with more ppm tannin sensitivity that others. In my experience at tasting panels maybe around 10% of people. Some may think those 10% are not worth bothering about but a "fruity" IPA to those people tastes of woody harsh splinters in their mouth so I believe its worth adding the acid to sparge water at the homebrew level since it is easy. I know at commercial scale in Scotland it is just not possible at 99% of breweries (pro brewers are not trained in it, equipment is not available - would require investment).

 

[Mash Monster]

Yep
That’s exactly why I keep my sparge water under a PH of 6 It works for me and is simple to do with Lactic acid

 

[Galena]

I never used to do this until I read THIS and now I just do it, as said it's so easy why not? Mind you my last 23L batch only needed 0.4mls in the sparge water aiming for 5.4 so not sure if it made any real difference.

 

[Sadfield]

The OP's Scottish water has very low Alkalinity, and therefore the sparge water has very little resistance to pH change when added to the acidic mash. Adding acid will likely result in lower than the optimal pitching pH of 5.5.

 

[malhal]

The OP's Scottish water has very low Alkalinity, and therefore the sparge water has very little resistance to pH change when added to the acidic mash. Adding acid will likely result in lower than the optimal pitching pH of 5.5.

The OP is supplied by Roseberrey A, which has typical Scottish high mean pH of 8.23 and max of 8.9. It seems in practice the mash induced lowering does not bring the sparge water supply below 6 fast enough and the damage is already done before the boil never mind the pitch!

https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/-/m...03/Water-202204-Rosebery-A-Last-12-Months.pdf
If pitch pH is not optimal maybe it can be adjusted after a successful sparge?

 

[Sadfield]

seems in practice the mash induced lowering does not bring the sparge water supply below 6 fast enough

Evidently not. No stringency reported.

Im having problems getting a good pale ale brew - they all tend to come out tasting the same, soft, fruity but nothing more than that,

 

[Brew_DD2]

The OP is supplied by Roseberrey A, which has typical Scottish high mean pH of 8.23 and max of 8.9. It seems in practice the mash induced lowering does not bring the sparge water supply below 6 fast enough and the damage is already done before the boil never mind the pitch!

https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/-/m...03/Water-202204-Rosebery-A-Last-12-Months.pdf
If pitch pH is not optimal maybe it can be adjusted after a successful sparge?

I might be off the mark, but the pH in itself isn't an issue because there is next to no buffering capacity.

 

[peebee]

I might be off the mark, but the pH in itself isn't an issue because there is next to no buffering capacity.

Dead right! It's a problem I'm trying to nail down at the moment. Any buffering power the water might have gets put there by the water company in a bid to protect their older iron pipework from corrosion. The dosing they do to the water seems to fritter away as the water covers more distance from the treatment works. The last private report I had (from Neil of Pheonix Analyticaan) only had an "Alkalinity" of 8ppm ("as CaCO3"), yet with the works only 20 miles away (I'm in Wales not Scotland where the distances are likely much bigger!) the water company still document almost twice that: 15ppm.

So, greater distances, greater "dosing", greater reported pH. And as @Brew_DD2 says, pH is not an important indicator for brewing, though it will help me predicting Alkalinity at the tap if anyone comes up with documented predictions of fading Alkalinity with distance...

 

[peebee]

I didn't get to publish this "Water Defuggler" today. Ran into some unexpected glitches. Predictably perhaps, the problems came from the depths of the "Mire", where water "Hardness" has its strongest grip (and most fuddling functions). Somewhere in the past I'd picked up some hellishly large figures for "Nitrates" which I'm using to better estimate bicarbonate content (and therefore "Alkalinity"). These figures are from my own supply. I'll need to come up with a better way of dealing with this "Nitrates" tedium.

The estimates based on water conductivity have improved, but it's still a naff approach. The aim of this spreadsheet is that you never need go anywhere near this drivel. Didn't save me though.

 

[peebee]

This link is to a public area on my Google Drive. I suggest it's downloaded. I've not checked it much in Google Sheets, but it may not appear as I intended, and it doesn't appear to honour cell locking so you might overwrite or delete formulas and utterly trash your copy. It was written in the latest "Excel" and Microsoft have freebie readers.

Water Defuddler

Its only purpose is to extract the 6 key water ions from various sources, guiding you the drivel and converting what's left to ppm (mg/l). Including the "Alkalinity" (spelling that word should be the hardest thing about it for homebrewers!). Thus, removing all the arcane "as CaCO3" and "Hardness" babble which must be responsible for 99% of the "difficulties" understanding water analysis for beer brewing (even "advanced" beer brewing)

I'm still testing it. I'm also hoping you will point out any difficulties with it so I can fix them. It should be pretty simple ... do tell me if it isn't.

It's currently loaded with data from my own water supply ... you will obviously be overwriting that stuff. There are no password protections! Remember, it is not a "water calculator". It only attempts to guide you clear of the un-necessary complexities associated with the subject. I wish the writers of water calculators had been doing that!

 

[Galena]

It wouldn't accept number until I downloaded it. Anyway not sure what to do with it, so I entered all the numbers except HCO3 (lets say I don't know this) so I enter known numbers for Ca, Mg, Na, Cl and SO4, then what?

 

[peebee]

I do keep saying it is not a calculator ... it's a "defuddler. So, if you can fill in the top six boxes with quantities in "ppm", that's "job done".

But you've to find "HCO3". So, you start descending into the depths. I make it grey and uninviting, 'cos it is grey and uninviting! I don't want anyone spending too long down there. Most brewers have spent way too long in the company of "Water Hardness" anyhow. Some have a value for "KH" (Carbonate Hardness), but more likely you have to descend deeper to find "Temporary Hardness"? Plug that value in which will be a horrid "as CaCO3" number and return. Before leaving the Mire plug the same number into the box near the surface. The correct number appears on the surface to plug into the Bicarbonate box. I purposely didn't make it "automatic" 'cos it gives a chance to review the answer before potentially polluting the answer boxes. This is a clip from my water reports:

I'm not given "temporary hardness" So was grubbing even deeper for the figure I wanted (15.14 ppm HCO3). Deeper it's messing with "mEq/l" and using "NO3" values to balance the report a bit better: That's the sort of extreme larking about I'm hoping the spreadsheet saves folk from!


Actually ... I didn't need to do the deep dive to get the HCO3 figure, Dwr Cymru supply that figure in their "Basics" analysis anyway, but it was worth the exercise to be confident it's working. Their "basics" figure was 16.20 ppm BTW.