Vinegar/sour taste from yeast or water?

[Flatline9]

Hi guys,

I've successfully brewed several dark beers using BIAB but have had mixed results with pale ales. Some have turned out great but a few are terrible. The first bad one was a blonde ale with vienna as the base malt. I initially put this bad brew down to the malt selection and decided I wouldn't use vienna as base again. However, the second bad one was an English bitter with pale malt as the base.

They both carbonated fine, aren't too yeasty and have cleared well. However, there is a really bad sour or vinegary taste which I'm assuming is the puckering/astringent effect I've read about. I used the same yeast (Safale US-05) for both (blonde ale first, washed and repitched for the bitter). They had 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in bottles.

Do you guys reckon it's just a wild yeast carried over in washing? Or could it be due to the fact I haven't treated my water? I live in Edinburgh and just use the tap water. Could it be that the dark beers are more acidic during the boil and fermentation, whereas these pale ales aren't acidic and the mash pH is shooting up?

Any suggestions?

Thanks

 

[strange-steve]

I'm afraid a vinegar taste is almost always a bacterial infection. It is unfortunately quite common this time of year because of fruit flies. They cause acetobacter infections which turn your delicious brew into malt vinegar.

Before you brew again give all your equipment a damn good clean with bleach then sodium metabisulphite then sanitise.

 

[Flatline9]

Bugger, I've got another brew fermenting in the same bucket (different yeast though).. Hopefully I gave it a good enough scrub.

Any chance it could be from high pH of mash or sparge?

 

[dad_of_jon]

Bugger, I've got another brew fermenting in the same bucket (different yeast though).. Hopefully I gave it a good enough scrub.

Any chance it could be from high pH of mash or sparge?

not with a vinegar taste. :-(

BTW acid is a low ph - base or alkaline a high ph.

 

[Flatline9]

I was meaning could a high pH during the mash (from lack of acidic malt like it my darker brews) be the cause? I've read somewhere this extracts excessive tannins and generally produces poor wort.. Not that a high pH itself is producing the vinegar taste

 

[Spoon]

I sometimes wonder if craft brewers are in the wrong industry, in theory you could make far more money from vinegar than you can beer! Sarsons is £1.40 a pint in Tesco, the same as most of the ales, and no duty!

Craft IPVinegar anyone?

 

[brumbrew]

I sometimes wonder if craft brewers are in the wrong industry, in theory you could make far more money from vinegar than you can beer! Sarsons is £1.40 a pint in Tesco, the same as most of the ales, and no duty!

Craft IPVinegar anyone?

You have a point. Or a pint ;-)

I have a bucket consigned to the "just for storing bottles" place in the shed.

I'm never washing it and I'll make vinigar. I'll report back when I have a hipster range of vinigar :-)

 

[MyQul]

I was meaning could a high pH during the mash (from lack of acidic malt like it my darker brews) be the cause? I've read somewhere this extracts excessive tannins and generally produces poor wort.. Not that a high pH itself is producing the vinegar taste

Tannins and vinegar taste very different. Actual I'm sure I've read tannins dont actually have taste it's a sensation in the mouth, kind of like a puckering. I find it gives me a kind of tingling in the lips

 

[brumbrew]

I don't drink tea, so I can empathise with this about how I think it should taste. Kind of dry and yes puckering ;-) great word :-)

 

[MyQul]

I don't drink tea, so I can empathise with this about how I think it should taste. Kind of dry and yes puckering ;-) great word :-)

An interesting fact I found out about tea when I was doing reading/research about tannins. The reason you add milk to teas is so the tannins bind to the protiens in the milk otherwise they bind to your gob and give you that 'puckering' sensation

 

[Flatline9]

I'm planning to bottle the next batch this weekend that has been fermenting in the same bucket. I have used a different yeast and sanitised the bucket after the last contaminated batch. However, if the contamination has been carried over, do you think the vinegar taste will be present at the moment, or will it only develop during bottling? I'd hate to wait another 3 weeks to find a second batch has been contaminated.

 

[johnnyboy1965]

If you want to taste "tanin" make a cup of tea using 2 teabags...Thats tanin

 

[strange-steve]

I'm planning to bottle the next batch this weekend that has been fermenting in the same bucket. I have used a different yeast and sanitised the bucket after the last contaminated batch. However, if the contamination has been carried over, do you think the vinegar taste will be present at the moment, or will it only develop during bottling? I'd hate to wait another 3 weeks to find a second batch has been contaminated.

I would expect the infection to be noticeable after 2 or 3 weeks, but I definitely wouldn't bottle it until I was sure there was no infection otherwise you may contaminate the bottling bucket, syphon hose, bottler, all the bottles etc.

 

[Flatline9]

I would expect the infection to be noticeable after 2 or 3 weeks, but I definitely wouldn't bottle it until I was sure there was no infection otherwise you may contaminate the bottling bucket, syphon hose, bottler, all the bottles etc.

Thanks. I'll have a small sample when I take a gravity reading. And sanitise everything with bleach for the next use.

 

[Flatline9]

On a funny side note, I left the first bad vinegar batch at my old flat where some pals are still staying. I was planning on throwing them away but my friends ended up drinking them anyway. Times are tough for students!

 

[strange-steve]

On a funny side note, I left the first bad vinegar batch at my old flat where some pals are still staying. I was planning on throwing them away but my friends ended up drinking them anyway. Times are tough for students!

:lol:
A little bit of vinegar can actually be quite nice in some styles. If you've ever had a flanders red ale like Rodenbach Grand Cru or the like, they have some balsamic vinegar notes to them and they are absolutely delicious.

 

[simon12]

I sometimes wonder if craft brewers are in the wrong industry, in theory you could make far more money from vinegar than you can beer! Sarsons is �£1.40 a pint in Tesco, the same as most of the ales, and no duty!

Craft IPVinegar anyone?

Funny I was in cobbetts (Local specialist off license and micropub) and on there counter they had bottles of cider vinegar for sale and a leaflet about the health benefits of unpasteurised vinegar.

 

[Flatline9]

:lol:
A little bit of vinegar can actually be quite nice in some styles. If you've ever had a flanders red ale like Rodenbach Grand Cru or the like, they have some balsamic vinegar notes to them and they are absolutely delicious.

Yer I've tried a couple of sour beers but they're personally not my thing. Glad I can please my friends though!

 

[dad_of_jon]

:lol:
A little bit of vinegar can actually be quite nice in some styles. If you've ever had a flanders red ale like Rodenbach Grand Cru or the like, they have some balsamic vinegar notes to them and they are absolutely delicious.

just had a 750ml bottle of grand cru, so yes I can vouch for that!

:thumb:

 

[Grizzly299]

If you're certain it's vinegar then definately check your sanitation.

Never start a syphon with your mouth, it's probably one of the most overlooked of bad practices that can contaminate a brew.

If it's dry and puckering then it might be because of high mash and sparge PH in lighter beers. The Buffering capability of light malts is much less than that of a very dark grain bill.


My water is very hard about 213 Caco3 and a PH of 7.4 so even with darker beers I need to use a little acidulated malt to bring the pH down. In lighter beers I use DWB(courtesy of Caffle Brewery), AMS and some Acidulated malt.