Vienna Lager Yeast

[dlowe1992]

Hi all,

Finally a free weekend coming up, so planning a couple of small batch brews, one being my attempt at a Three Tuns XXX style pale ale.
I'd like the second to be a Vienna Lager (of sorts)..

Vienna / Munich with a small amount of carapils
Magnum and/or Hellertau boil hops, maybe a small addition at flame out, haven't decided yet.

Not sure what yeast to use as I don't have the kit to ferment reliably at lower temps.
I'm considering using CML's Kolsh Lager yeast, fermenting at room temp and lagering for 6-8 weeks. Anyone any experience with this yeast?

Alternative would be to use something like US-05 and brew it as a 'Vienna Ale' if such a thing exists...

Ta,
Dan

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I would use 34/70 for the vienna lager, you can ferment at 18c supposedly and get good results.

 

[Tanglefoot]

You could try Novalager, it's OK at higher temps up to 20c although I've only used it at lager temperature of 13c.
Higher temp supposedly can give a green apple flavour which put me off a bit.

 

[Twostage]

I would use 34/70 for the vienna lager, you can ferment at 18c supposedly and get good results.

Yes, I'd seen that on the Fermentis site where they show the flavour profile doesn't change much for brews between 12 and 20 degrees. Here - 34/70

Has anyone on here tried it ?

One of my next brews is going to be my first attempt at a Helles and I've got some 34/70 for it. My original plan was in the brewfridge at 13c but I've already got a brew in there. I've got a room that is a constant 16 which would fit the bill.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I have a lager in my fermenter atm but yes the same as you, my next one is going to be a practise helles and I'm using 34/70 too. I have CML hell yeast in stock as well but that leaves the lagers too sweet in my opinion.

 

[Twostage]

I have a lager in my fermenter atm but yes the same as you, my next one is going to be a practise helles and I'm using 34/70 too. I have CML hell yeast in stock as well but that leaves the lagers too sweet in my opinion.

I suppose there's not much to lose by doing a trial at 16c is there ?

What Helles recipe/process are you going to use ? Not all of the ones I've seen bother with lagering, they just ferment, crash, package, drink.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I'm doing mine at 13c in my GF30, useful for yeast dumping from there, and then I can lager in there for a short while before transfer to keg.

First go as well so fingers crossed. Just a practise run for a forum swap in August.

 

[dlowe1992]

I'm now leaning towards splitting and doing a batch with a lager yeast which will tolerate higher temps such as Kolsch / 3470 and a batch fermented with an ale yeast such as S05. Should be interesting...

Funnily enough I've also been reading this morning about recipes / examples where the lagering process seems to be skipped in favour of a shorter cold crash and condition. Maybe a further sub division and comparison upcoming!!

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Be great to know how you got on dlowe

Although I will say I've made a lager with lutra kveik and it was utterly disgusting for my taste lol. Doesn't resemble a lager in any way, shape or form. Never again.

My advice would be to use a lager yeast, as low as you can get it and lager it properly if you can.

Be careful of the kolsch yeasts, they can give off pear esters. Lovely in a kolsch, but not in a vienna lager I wouldn't have thought.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Yes, I'd seen that on the Fermentis site where they show the flavour profile doesn't change much for brews between 12 and 20 degrees. Here - 34/70

Has anyone on here tried it ?

One of my next brews is going to be my first attempt at a Helles and I've got some 34/70 for it. My original plan was in the brewfridge at 13c but I've already got a brew in there. I've got a room that is a constant 16 which would fit the bill.

Yes, I've got a Helles about 60% of the way through with w-34/70 at the moment (after only 3.5 days in the FV with two sachets)
First time I've used it: I'd normally use a liquid yeast but it's what I had to hand. It's certainly very convenient.
I'm using it at a tightly-controlled 12ºc which is warmer than I'd normally do with a lager, but that's still at bottom end of the recommended range on the packet.
There's a slight sulphurous whiff but nothing like as bad as I've had with some yeasts. No sign of any 'off' flavours so far.

One thing I'd say is that if your room is at 16ºc, the fermentation itself could easily get up to 18ºc or so because of the metabolic heat generated by the yeast. So you'd best keep an eye on it...

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Funnily enough I've also been reading this morning about recipes / examples where the lagering process seems to be skipped in favour of a shorter cold crash and condition. Maybe a further sub division and comparison upcoming!!

I'd recommend having a look a this article if you haven't already read it: Fast Lagers: Ferment Your Favorite Lagers in Less Time - Brew Your Own

 

[Twostage]

I'm doing mine at 13c in my GF30, useful for yeast dumping from there, and then I can lager in there for a short while before transfer to keg.

First go as well so fingers crossed. Just a practise run for a forum swap in August.

Yes, I'm practicing for the swap too.

 

[Twostage]

Yes, I've got a Helles about 60% of the way through with w-34/70 at the moment (after only 3.5 days in the FV with two sachets)
First time I've used it: I'd normally use a liquid yeast but it's what I had to hand. It's certainly very convenient.
I'm using it at a tightly-controlled 12ºc which is warmer than I'd normally do with a lager, but that's still at bottom end of the recommended range on the packet.
There's a slight sulphurous whiff but nothing like as bad as I've had with some yeasts. No sign of any 'off' flavours so far.

One thing I'd say is that if your room is at 16ºc, the fermentation itself could easily get up to 18ºc or so because of the metabolic heat generated by the yeast. So you'd best keep an eye on it...

View attachment 91842

Yes, I'd thought about the couple of degrees that are yeast generated so I'm going to do 20 litres split across 4 demis (rather than a 25 litre FV) which should lose heat easier. Even if they peak at 19 its still below what they have on their website.

Must confess the sulphur smell is more of a worry, the Missus has a nose like a bloodhound. I'll have to keep the door shut and the window cracked.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Yes, I'd thought about the couple of degrees that are yeast generated so I'm going to do 20 litres split across 4 demis (rather than a 25 litre FV) which should lose heat easier. Even if they peak at 19 its still below what they have on their website.

Must confess the sulphur smell is more of a worry, the Missus has a nose like a bloodhound. I'll have to keep the door shut and the window cracked.

Great idea to split into smaller containers - yes, that will work as it's a bigger surface area to volume ratio (although glass is a slightly better insulator than plastic).

As for the smell... maybe cook a couple of curries to mask it? Or stick a jar of pickled eggs in the cupboard and blame it on that...

Maybe even run a hose from the airlock out the window...

 

[Rodcx500z]

I'd recommend having a look a this article if you haven't already read it: Fast Lagers: Ferment Your Favorite Lagers in Less Time - Brew Your Own

That is a very good read very interesting, cheers for sharing

 

[Twostage]

Great idea to split into smaller containers - yes, that will work as it's a bigger surface area to volume ratio (although glass is a slightly better insulator than plastic).

As for the smell... maybe cook a couple of curries to mask it? Or stick a jar of pickled eggs in the cupboard and blame it on that...

Maybe even run a hose from the airlock out the window...

Think I've got a new plan.

I've checked back when I was pressure fermenting 20 litres of cider in summer and monitoring ambient and cider temperature. While the air temp varied between 17 and 25 the cider only varied by just over a degree.

The brewshed is hovering around 10c now and over the past 24 hours it has varied by 3c so I think I'll just ferment at ambient temperature in the brewshed. Might Insulate it to smooth out the temperature if its needed. Might spur me on to build a simple wooden fermentation chamber.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Think I've got a new plan.

I've checked back when I was pressure fermenting 20 litres of cider in summer and monitoring ambient and cider temperature. While the air temp varied between 17 and 25 the cider only varied by just over a degree.

The brewshed is hovering around 10c now and over the past 24 hours it has varied by 3c so I think I'll just ferment at ambient temperature in the brewshed. Might Insulate it to smooth out the temperature if its needed. Might spur me on to build a simple wooden fermentation chamber.

Sounds great! Nice one

 

[Twostage]

Think I've got a new plan.

I've checked back when I was pressure fermenting 20 litres of cider in summer and monitoring ambient and cider temperature. While the air temp varied between 17 and 25 the cider only varied by just over a degree.

The brewshed is hovering around 10c now and over the past 24 hours it has varied by 3c so I think I'll just ferment at ambient temperature in the brewshed. Might Insulate it to smooth out the temperature if its needed. Might spur me on to build a simple wooden fermentation chamber.

Realised I didn't need to build a wooden framed chamber and made a temporary one out of recticel and glass tape. The sides slot over the bottom piece and the lid comes off to give access. Dig the fancy scarves acting as a seal .

 

[dlowe1992]

Digging out an old post here, but thanks for advice on the above. I fermented with CML FIVE in the end and it was great.
The inspiration for this recipe was a 'Vienna Lager' served on cask by Titanic which was terrific, so the ale yeast worked a treat.

I'm brewing V2 tomorrow with a few amendments. It will also be my first attempt at a step mash. Not sure it's necessary, but something I'm intrigued to try..
(3 step mash - protein / beta / alpha) aiming for a decent body to this.

Recipe link below. Any thoughts or advice from more seasoned brewers welcome :)

https://share.brewfather.app/Ycb4e2PwMDbqLM

 

[Northern_Brewer]

You shouldn't be afraid to brew lager yeasts at "ale" temperatures, the Frohberg group of lager yeasts (which includes all the main commercial ones) are pretty temperature tolerant. There's an epic thread on the subject here :
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/warm-fermented-lager-thread.592169/

I wouldn't necessarily do it for a competition, but for ordinary drinking ale-temperature lager yeast are fine - things like 34/70 and WLP800.
I wouldn't use Novalager for lager, the consensus is that it works in cold IPA but is just too fruity for lager.

The thing about Viennas is that traditionally they had rather low attenuation, like <70% - they would traditionally go from about 1.053 OG (so a bit higher than you have) down to only about 1.018. I know you've the dextrin in there to help mouthfeel, but do do what you can to keep attenuation down. WLP820 or WLP920 are the ideal yeast for that kind of attenuation.