Victorian/ ole English bitter

[Glyn1]

Hi
Does anybody have a all grain recipe for a victorian/old English bitter?. A few years ago I did the muntons old english kit and after leaving it in bottles for four months was very nice but I would like to now do a all grain or extract equivalent of this beer. I would be making 23 litres.
Thanks

 

[An Ankoù]

Hi Glyn 1 and welcome to the forum. I have a whole book full of them in asmuchas the recipe book of the Durden Park lot who specialise in old beers. If you let me know what sort of OG you would want I'll find a suitable recipe for you in there.

 

[Glyn1]

Hi Glyn 1 and welcome to the forum. I have a whole book full of them in asmuchas the recipe book of the Durden Park lot who specialise in old beers. If you let me know what sort of OG you would want I'll find a suitable recipe for you in there.

 

[Glyn1]

I would like the beer to be around 4 to 4.5 per cent please.
Thanks

 

[Hanglow]

AK was the precursor to bitter

Here's one
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2013/01/lets-brew-wednesday-1896-eldridge-pope.html

and check out this list of all of rons LBW recipes, most from the 20th century but there are a few from the 19th. He also has a few books.

http://www.unholymess.com/blog/lets-brew/comment-page-1

x = mild, more x's the stronger the beer
k=pale ales, more k's the stronger the beer

usually :)

 

[An Ankoù]

I would like the beer to be around 4 to 4.5 per cent please.
Thanks

Ah, then I misunderstood you. These start off at about 1060 and get progressively stronger. Beer tended to be stronger before the two wars. I think it needs a bit more than 4% to get the benefit of long maturation, to. Even so, when I've got 5 minutes I'll have a look and see what I can find. In the meantime, Hanglow's recommendations (above) look pretty good.

 

[Zephyr259]

What specifically would you like to brew? That kit looks like a standard ordinary/best bitter with a bit of "old timey" branding. I have a go to bitter recipe but it's not "Victorian/old" which would be much stronger and generally a lot more bitter as An Ankou mentioned.

Zephyr's Brew Days. That's the link to the post of my first brew which was based on the Greg Hughes Yorkshire Bitter, 2 posts on I mention a re-brew where I subbed in 20% Munich malt. Both beers were very tasty.

 

[Glyn1]

I don't want to brew anything too strong, its the " Old English " taste that appeals to me and the muntons beefbkit was excellent.

 

[Zephyr259]

I don't want to brew anything too strong, its the " Old English " taste that appeals to me and the muntons beefbkit was excellent.

The recipe I linked should be good then. First Gold is a nice English hop, but you could go with East Kent Goldings for an even more traditional taste? It has a good bitterness at that level but the hop flavour is reasonably mild. My recent batch bumped the late hops up to 100g over the final 15 mins, bramling cross and first gold, it's tasty but needing a bit more time for the flavours to blend.

 

[Glyn1]

Great thankyou

 

[Dutto]

I got the following Recipe from @EddtheBrew about two years ago.

At the time, Edd was writing a book that he hoped to publish and had done a lot of work on old recipes. This one is from T & G Greenhall in 1863 and I hope that Edd doesn't mind me letting everyone read this copyright recipe.

I've never made the brew, but I think it may very well be what you are looking for but:

• As @An Ankoù says, the ABV is about 6% 'cos that's the way they brewed Bitter back then, and,
• You may need to do considerable work to understand what it says!

Recipe Copyright : E I MATHER 2018

-------------------------------------------------------------------

T & G GREENALL ; Hall St Brewery St Helens

Bitter Beer , March 23Rd 1863

OG : 1.063 Racking Gravity : 1.016 F.G : 1.013

IBU : 58 – 60 ABV: 6ó %

MALT

Pale Ale Malt 70 %

(Chevalier / Constable)

Pale Ale Malt (as above , @ 6.5 ebc 30 %

MASHING

1St Mash Heat: 148 Fahrenheit @ 2.413 L/KG

(at mash in , until + 30 minutes)

2Nd Mash Heat : Raise at + 30 Minutes to 152-3 Fahrenheit , at a ratio

of 1.650 L/KG (@ + 30 - + 120)

3Rd Mash Heat : 158 Fahrenheit @ + 120 - +150 minutes , @ 1.705

L/KG

Set Taps / Start Run Off @ + 150 minutes .

SPARGING

Sparge @ + 160 - +165 Minutes and at a ratio , of 3.700 L/KG

at 165 – 170 Fahrenheit .

COPPER & HOPS

A 1ó Hour Boil , with the first charge @ + 0 minutes ,

2Nd charge @ + 35 Minutes , and a third @ + 65 – 70 Minutes.

HOPS :

FIRST CHARGE;

Cluster 10 IBU @ 1.052

Mittelfruh 10 IBU @ 1.052

SECOND CHARGE

Mittelfruh 20 IBU @ 1.055

THIRD CHARGE

Fuggles 10 IBU @ 1.061

(Preferably French)

East Kents 5 IBU @ 1.061

Bramling Cross 3 IBU @ 1.061

YEAST & PITCHING etc ;

Pitch with a Lancashire type strain @ 59 Fahrenheit ,

At 4.25 g/litre @ 1.063 , and allow no higher than 66 Fahrenheit ,

Rouse 24 hours after pitching , and every 10 hours afterwards until

1.023 .

Stop fermentation by cooling to 60 Fahrenheit @ 1.020,the to 58

Fahrenheit .

And give a final rouse @ 1.018 when @ 58 , and allow a 2 day

diacetyl rest @ 58 before racking to a barrel.

RACKING & MATURATION

Rack @ 1.016 , at 57-58 F , and add (25 L brew) , racking hops as

below ;

East Kents 8 g

Mittelfruh 8 g

Mature for a minimum of 1-1ó months for DRAUGHT

consumption , and 2 months for a bottled product before bottling ,

then age for a minimum of 1 month before q.c !!

Mature in cask as above , but only add the finished product finings a

minimum of 48 hours before drinking , rolling the container well

before stillaging.

FININGS : Copper : say 8 – 12 g @ +120 – 125 minutes into the boil

Barrel : Do a finings test .

Enjoy!

 

[Glyn1]

What specifically would you like to brew? That kit looks like a standard ordinary/best bitter with a bit of "old timey" branding. I have a go to bitter recipe but it's not "Victorian/old" which would be much stronger and generally a lot more bitter as An Ankou mentioned.

Zephyr's Brew Days. That's the link to the post of my first brew which was based on the Greg Hughes Yorkshire Bitter, 2 posts on I mention a re-brew where I subbed in 20% Munich malt. Both beers were very tasty.

 

[Glyn1]

What would be the grain and hop amounts to brew 23 litres please?

 

[An Ankoù]

I got the following Recipe from @EddtheBrew about two years ago.

At the time, Edd was writing a book that he hoped to publish and had done a lot of work on old recipes. This one is from T & G Greenhall in 1863 and I hope that Edd doesn't mind me letting everyone read this copyright recipe.

I've never made the brew, but I think it may very well be what you are looking for but:

• As @An Ankoù says, the ABV is about 6% 'cos that's the way they brewed Bitter back then, and,
• You may need to do considerable work to understand what it says!

Recipe Copyright : E I MATHER 2018

-------------------------------------------------------------------

T & G GREENALL ; Hall St Brewery St Helens

Bitter Beer , March 23Rd 1863

OG : 1.063 Racking Gravity : 1.016 F.G : 1.013

IBU : 58 – 60 ABV: 6ó %

MALT

Pale Ale Malt 70 %

(Chevalier / Constable)

Pale Ale Malt (as above , @ 6.5 ebc 30 %

MASHING

1St Mash Heat: 148 Fahrenheit @ 2.413 L/KG

(at mash in , until + 30 minutes)

2Nd Mash Heat : Raise at + 30 Minutes to 152-3 Fahrenheit , at a ratio

of 1.650 L/KG (@ + 30 - + 120)

3Rd Mash Heat : 158 Fahrenheit @ + 120 - +150 minutes , @ 1.705

L/KG

Set Taps / Start Run Off @ + 150 minutes .

SPARGING

Sparge @ + 160 - +165 Minutes and at a ratio , of 3.700 L/KG

at 165 – 170 Fahrenheit .

COPPER & HOPS

A 1ó Hour Boil , with the first charge @ + 0 minutes ,

2Nd charge @ + 35 Minutes , and a third @ + 65 – 70 Minutes.

HOPS :

FIRST CHARGE;

Cluster 10 IBU @ 1.052

Mittelfruh 10 IBU @ 1.052

SECOND CHARGE

Mittelfruh 20 IBU @ 1.055

THIRD CHARGE

Fuggles 10 IBU @ 1.061

(Preferably French)

East Kents 5 IBU @ 1.061

Bramling Cross 3 IBU @ 1.061

YEAST & PITCHING etc ;

Pitch with a Lancashire type strain @ 59 Fahrenheit ,

At 4.25 g/litre @ 1.063 , and allow no higher than 66 Fahrenheit ,

Rouse 24 hours after pitching , and every 10 hours afterwards until

1.023 .

Stop fermentation by cooling to 60 Fahrenheit @ 1.020,the to 58

Fahrenheit .

And give a final rouse @ 1.018 when @ 58 , and allow a 2 day

diacetyl rest @ 58 before racking to a barrel.

RACKING & MATURATION

Rack @ 1.016 , at 57-58 F , and add (25 L brew) , racking hops as

below ;

East Kents 8 g

Mittelfruh 8 g

Mature for a minimum of 1-1ó months for DRAUGHT

consumption , and 2 months for a bottled product before bottling ,

then age for a minimum of 1 month before q.c !!

Mature in cask as above , but only add the finished product finings a

minimum of 48 hours before drinking , rolling the container well

before stillaging.

FININGS : Copper : say 8 – 12 g @ +120 – 125 minutes into the boil

Barrel : Do a finings test .

Enjoy!

Yes, well, if you're talking about kit brewing, Dutto!
Right Glyn1. I'm on the search for a recipe. Will post it in the morning.

 

[marshbrewer]

At the time, Edd was writing a book that he hoped to publish

He still is - last update I saw was he was at the organising chapters stage. I like the way he provides lots of detail for each recipe, so am really looking forward to it's release

 

[Dutto]

Hi
Does anybody have a all grain recipe for a victorian/old English bitter? .........

@An Ankoù Sorry, but I thought the OP was asking for an AG brew, even though he quoted making a kit.

He still is - last update I saw was he was at the organising chapters stage. I like the way he provides lots of detail for each recipe, so am really looking forward to it's release

Me too. I may go back to AG brewing if I can persuade Santa's little helper to let me have a Grainfather and a water supply to the shed! Gotta go and shoot some pigs flying past the house!

 

[An Ankoù]

@An Ankoù Sorry, but I thought the OP was asking for an AG brew, even though he quoted making a kit.



Me too. I may go back to AG brewing if I can persuade Santa's little helper to let me have a Grainfather and a water supply to the shed! Gotta go and shoot some pigs flying past the house!

Sorry both. I was having a laugh at the complexity of Dutto's recipe by referring to it as a kit, which it manifestly isn't.

 

[An Ankoù]

Good morning Glyn1.
I've had a look through "Old British Beers and How to Make Them" and I would suggest this with an OG of 1055. It's among the weakest except for a "small beer" at 1044. A couple of things to remember: bittering rates in a bitter were high otherwise it would be a mild (mild refers to the bittering rate, not the colour or the strength of the beer); the only hops around today that were anything like those used 100 years ago were Goldings and Fuggles or "continental" hops like Saaz- alpha acid conversion was not understood; crystal malt was not used- it was probably not invented.
This is from 1909 (only a few of years after Queen Vic) BB (best bitter) Morrell's Brewer, Oxford, OG 1055
2½ lb Pale Malt, 1.35 oz Fuggles. Mature for 3-4 months
And that's it!
Here's my interpretation: That amount of malt is going to give you a higher OG than 1055 and that amount of Fuggles (they assume 4.5% alpha acid) is going to give an IBU around the nineties. Your 23 litre batch is 5 gallons so I'll multiply by 5, convert to metric and reduce the amounts to what I think they should be.
Instead of 5.68 Kg of Pale Malt, Use 5.25 (still on the generous side)
Instead of 190g Fuggles at 4.5% alpha acid, go for 55 IBUs which means chuck a whole 100g packet in.
Mash at 66-67 C (no lower as you want some sweetness and body to balance the hops). Boil for a full 90 minutes. Use something like Safale S-04 for yeast or something with good flocculation and medium attenuation. Mature for the full period.
Good luck.

 

[Glyn1]

Thanks for the recipe, would I just throw the 100grams of fuggles in the wort at the start of the boil?
Thanks

 

[Zephyr259]

What would be the grain and hop amounts to brew 23 litres please?

Multiply everything by 1.5 and that should come close. I then round speciality malts to the closest 50g.

Bear in mind that you'll need to adjust the bittering hope based on alpha acids. My admiral were 13-13.3%.

If you need more info I can link a 23L recipe later on once I'm home.