Turbo Cider... what's it really like... honestly!

[Stanleythecat]

Ok so I'm going to do a turbo cider! I have a few questions before I commit fully to the cause.

The cider I like is Thatchers Gold/Katy etc, I like a fizzy and refreshing drink! So I'm not really looking for turbo scrumpy!

So is there a recipe that might suit? or am I barking up the wrong apple tree all together?

I saw this recipe on another thread (might be someone's here!) and thought I might use something like:

23lt tesco apple juice
2tsp yeast nutrient
2tsp citric acid
1tsp malic acid
1 lemon (cut into 4)
10 chunks crystalised stem ginger (chopped)
0.5kg sugar
1 sachet Harvest SN9 yeast

I'd be scaling this down to one demijon just to see what it is like.

So questions:

I don't want it to blow my head off but would like it fizzy. What is the best yeast to use? I saw one recipe used a Nottingham Ale Yeast but I imagine this wouldn't give me the fizz I am after?
If I back sweeten is there a non artificial sweetner that I can use instead of Splenda etc (for some unexplainable reason they give me insomnia!)
And what is the realistic timescale for this to be at its best? People suggest cider must be left to go through its proper fermentation.

Thanks in advance

Leo

 

[calumscott]

Graysalchemy is your man for TC, he has helped me greatly with mine.

If you are after a really good, thatchers-esque, clear, fizzy, quality cider then you need to take a lot of care and a lot time over this.

Go buy an FV solely for the purpose, because it's going to be in there a good while!

What I used was:

23l normal apple juice from concentrate.
5tsp wine tannin - eating/juicing apples don't have nearly enough.
5tsp malic acid - to ensure that there is lots for malolactic fermentation during ageing.
5tsp pectolase - to ensure a nice clear cider.
one packet of youngs cider yeast.

I started it on the 15th Feb, racked it on the 9th March and it's getting bottled later this month.

I had a peek in the FV a week or so ago and I have to say that this smells utterly exquisite, like a thatchers or sheppy's bottled one. The taste I had at racking was showing real potential but after a month and a half ageing the difference (in aroma at least) is just "WOW!!".

Got to be a cider yeast.

Unless you have force carbonating equipment (corny kegs or *maybe* a sodastream - I seem to recall they didn't like carbing anything that wasn't just water...) then backsweetening has to be something that the yeast can't eat. Splenda is, for me, the best of the artificial ones, it doesn't taste chemically.

Time is essential. Seriously, the difference between the sample at two weeks and the one when I racked was quite something but the smell after 2 and a half months is just out of this world...

 

[graysalchemy]

I think Calum has summed it up really. His recipe is what i use to make a decent cider.

Aging is the key to any cider. If you try it just after it has been fermented you will be disappointed with the results. Cider needs aging to allow malolactic fermentation to take place. We add malic acid to TC because the apples used to make apple juice are not cider apples and don't have the levels of malic acid found in cider apples, the same goes for tannin as well. Malolactic fermentation turns the rather harsh malic acid into a more rounded lactic acid and other flavour components. This will take months, realistically 2-3 but 6 months would be better.

Yeast is also important. I use a yeast cultured from a bottle of westons old rosie cloudy cider. But a proper cider yeast will do fine. If you use a champagne or wione yeast it will probably end up too dry cider yeast tends not to ferment out as dry but may well need sweetening up. If you are wanting fizzy cider then you will have to use an artificial sweetner or serve it with a bit of apple juice to sweeten it back up.

:thumb:

 

[Stanleythecat]

Thanks for taking the time to reply graysalchemy

The recipe you use sounds almost too easy to be true when I look back at all of the 'extra' bits people seem to be throwing in. What cider would you liken it too?

And are you suggesting bulk ageing is the way to go? Callum you suggested a dedicated FV? if so when would you bottle and prime for a touch of fizz?

Thanks again for the helpful comments, the fact that you described the smell alone as exquisite really helps me feel that this is worth doing.

Leo

 

[graysalchemy]

Yes you age it in bulk in a fermentor and it will look like it needs to be thrown and it will end up like this

courtesy of tazuk :thumb:

But that is the bacteria performing the malolactic fermentation.

It tastes of a half decent west country cider, it will have some of that farmyard taste (but i think this is partly due to the yeast). A million miles away from the tramp juice which you get from just adding sugar and yeast to apple juice and drinking it as soon as it ferments.

Fizzyness depends on how much sugar you want to add when you bottle it. I use 7g per Litre of cider.

 

[Stanleythecat]

God I'm glad you showed me that picture! I would certainly have been doubting it if i'd popped the lid to see that!!!

So I'm being dumb now, does this get racked after the primary fermentation has finished? and as I would like it sparkling is there a time limit of when you can bottle i.e does the yeast burn itself out and die off after all the sugar is consumed therefore stopping secondary fermentation?

Today is clearly a day for learning!

Many thanks

Leo

 

[graysalchemy]

I have actually left mine on the yeast for 6 months but actually it would probably be better off dropping it into a secondary after a month. It should still have plenty of microscopic yeast in suspension, but to be safe I allow a little of the yeast to be transfered when I move it into a clean FV prior to bottling and give it a little stir. :thumb:

 

[Crastney]

to clarify:
- ferment in a fermenting vessel, with an airlock.
- after some time, maybe two months, the fermentation will have stopped or at least slowed right down to negligible (this might be as quick as two weeks), a hydrometer reading will be in the range 0.995 tp 1.005, and the same three days running - all of the sugar will be used up, and therefore it will be (very) dry and flat.
- at this stage rack off the lees (transfer the liquid to another FV without transfering the **** at the bottom) - this will be secondary fermentation, during which malolactic fermentation might occur (it's tricky, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, it doesn't require oxygen for this), but it will mature through this phase.
- after a period of time (maybe 6 months) - it can be racked again - just to remove the collected **** at the bottom, and then bottled.
- at this point it will be dry and flat - if you add any sugar to sweeten it, the yeast still in suspension will ferment it, it will get stronger, but will end up dry again, hence why people add artificial sweetener, as it's not fermentable.
- if you want it fizzy you have to add sugar, but you also need to contain the CO2 produced. Therefore this is when you bottle the cider, adding about 1tsp per litre to the bottles before adding the liquid. The yeast still in suspension will feed of this new sugar, they will produce CO2, which will fill the air gap in the bottle, however when you move the bottles to a cooler environment this increases the ability for the liquid to dissolve the CO2. This is what makes it fizzy - the dissolved CO2 in the liquid from a third fermentation in the bottle.
- you need glass screw caps, or plastic screw caps, that have held pressure before (coke bottles), or glass bottles with crown caps (like beer bottles) that take pressure.
- when you open them, they should be fizzy.

- it is possible to batch prime, adding enough sugar for the whole lot, in a pressure barrel, keg or similar. This would make the whole lot fizzy, and dispensed from this over a short period of time, but I think you'd lose the fizz if you tried to then bottle this.

Hope this helps.

 

[graysalchemy]

it is possible to batch prime, adding enough sugar for the whole lot, in a pressure barrel, keg or similar. This would make the whole lot fizzy, and dispensed from this over a short period of time, but I think you'd lose the fizz if you tried to then bottle this.

Is this a new way to batch prime :wha: :wha:

To batch prime you basically add all the sugar required to prime the whole batch gently mix it up and then bottle.

It is very simple and gives you evenly carbonated bottles of cider.

First of all you will need a second clean fermentation vessel or big bucket. Now you need know how much cider you have, probaly the same as the amount of apple juice you added. Now you need to multiply this number by the dosage rate. As I said i usually use 7g per litre for cider.

So if you had 23l of cider you would need 161g of sugar. Now dissolve this in a little boiling water and add this to your clean sterilised FV/bucket.

Next you need to carefully syphon you cider into this bucket, the sugar solution will mix with the cider. As I said before if it has matured for a long time it won't do any harm to allow a small amount of yeast to get sucked up but litrally a tiny amount.

Give it a good stir making sure you don't slosh it around as you don't want oxygen getting into it (the alcohol will oxidise) Now you just have to fill your bottles and cap.

The advantage of this method is that you can use bottles of various sizes what ever you have without worrying about how much sugar to add.

Once they are all warm leave somewhere warm for week then put somewhere cool for about a month, and you will have perfectly carbonated cider. :thumb:

 

[Stanleythecat]

Brilliant.


Thanks Guys you couldn't have made it clearer.

Leo

 

[Hawks]

This has inspired me to try again... my first and last attempt was very much like tramp juice.. this sounds far more like it..

Thanks guys - good posts :thumb:

 

[graysalchemy]

I was very disappointed with TC when I first did it. But then watching an Aleman Vid on his website and reading about it. I realised there was more to cider than just fermenting it.

 

[Hawks]

I was very disappointed with TC when I first did it. But then watching an Aleman Vid on his website and reading about it. I realised there was more to cider than just fermenting it.

I'd read a few of your posts - but this one just pulled the whole process together a bit and explained how you will get a taste resembling cider...

No-one seems to mention if the base apple juice makes much difference - is it worth paying a premium for the juice ? As I would imagine it is going to have a reasonable impact on the final flavour ?

 

[graysalchemy]

No-one seems to mention if the base apple juice makes much difference - is it worth paying a premium for the juice ? As I would imagine it is going to have a reasonable impact on the final flavour ?

It will have some effect but it is the levels of malic acid, tannin and sugars in the fruit which is important.

 

[Hawks]

No-one seems to mention if the base apple juice makes much difference - is it worth paying a premium for the juice ? As I would imagine it is going to have a reasonable impact on the final flavour ?

It will have some effect but it is the levels of malic acid, tannin and sugars in the fruit which is important.

Cheers again GA :thumb:

 

[calumscott]

No-one seems to mention if the base apple juice makes much difference - is it worth paying a premium for the juice ? As I would imagine it is going to have a reasonable impact on the final flavour ?

It will have some effect but it is the levels of malic acid, tannin and sugars in the fruit which is important.

Which is why cider growers over the years have perfected various strains of apple to get those chemicals into the fruit and eating apple growers have perfected strains to take them out... :thumb:

We just can't get cider apple juice in cartons so we use eating apple juice and artificially up the levels of the chemical compounds that make good cider...

 

[graysalchemy]

Well said young padwan you are learning :lol: :lol:

 

[calumscott]

Well I might as well while I hang around waiting to drink the stuff!!! :lol:

 

[RobWalker]

The taste is comparable to a quality dry cider. Quite frankly it's one of the best i've ever had!

 

[paultrademark]

Great thread guys, am following these with keen newbie eyes :party: