Trub help, please.

[JohnB]

I have been following the recipe by Clibit elsewhere on this forum and I have a question that I can't seem to find an answer for. I have had a couple of go's at this and the result is just so different to the kit beer that I have decided to go down the AG route now.
After boiling the wort for the 60 minutes, and adding my hops along the way, I end up with 2 gallons of prospective loveliness, it smells superb. However the prospective loveliness gets transferred into the FV along with the trub. After about an hour or two, and the wort has cooled, all the trub settles out. I have a second FV available, is there any benefit to syphoning off the wort a second time to remove more of the trub before pitching the yeast?
A couple of points I have thought about are:
1. That the trub adds flavour by remaining in the wort during the week or so of ferment.
2. That the beer would clear faster and cleaner if the trub were removed.

 

[GerritT]

Okay, so there's the pot and then there's the fermenter. And inbetween is a sieve or colander with muslin cloth, or fine mesh. That's my setup anyway. Did you use a sieve or did you filter it any other way? Or was it a direct transfer?
Because yes, beer is easier and faster to clear when filtered. But even I have trub and I find no weird flavours. And trub removed early means no trub to remove later.

So what you could do is rack to secondary after a week, as an extra clearing step. BUT: that also means an extra chance for infection, or contact with oxygen can cause an off-flavour. So slowly and carefully and viola, clearer beer.

Or you could leave it like it is for another week, coldcrash it, siphon to bottling vessel and try to avoid trub transfer there.

As far as I can see nothing went wrong, just don't let it rest on the trub for months.

Cheers!

 

[JonBrew]

I've heard this point argued both ways often since getting into brewing. For a while I was quite meticulous about trying to rack only crystal clear wort from the kettle to the FV on the belief that it would help with the clarity of the beer. However, I recently relaxed my approach to allow me to get more finished beer. I installed dip tube in the kettle which lets me drain fro the very bottom but means a lot of break material (largely cold break) is also carried over. I haven't noticed any ill effects since doing so.

I changed my approach after I listened to a really interesting podcast from Master Brewers Association which discussed a study carried out by Stone Brewing into whirlpool trub carry over. Essentially, they found that carrying over increased levels of trub had no negative impacts on the packaged beer, in fact I recall that the high trub beer was clearer and had better stability/shelf-life. However, they did find that the high trub beer had a negative impact on the health of the yeast used to ferment that batch of beer and so was less suitable for re-pitching into future batches.

 

[JohnB]

Hi GerriT and JonBrew, The system I use is really simple, it has to be 'cos it has to be packed away after brew day in a small cupboard - otherwise I get SWMBO really upset!!! So I have my Peco set up under the cooker hood with the fan on. I boil the wort and hop additions then it comes to getting the stuff into the 5 gallon FV. It is sat on a stool, just in front of the cooker. I use a large Pyrex measuring jug to dip out the wort, hops, and all and pass it through a sieve (the tap on the boiler is less than useless). I tried muslin, but it blocked up at each addition, so I pass everything through her flour sieve. this removes most of the trub, which I dump in the bin. The FV is then lifted up onto the work surface next to the sink where I run a copper coil cooler, a simple device, converted from an ancient vodka experiment By the time it is cold enough to pitch I usually end up with about 2 inches of really fine crap in the bottom of the FV, and it was a thought that most of the hops have gone in the bin and what is left is probably fine malt flour and hop pollen and dust - is this "Cold Break"? I'm thinking of letting the trub settle, then carefully getting the wort off the top of it.

I also have to say that apart from doing kits as a kid (I'm a semi-retired truck driver) and experiments with erm ... rye-malt vodka! doing AG has opened my eyes to a whole new world that i am enjoying very much, but like every newbie, I am prone to asking stupid questions that maybe others have asked and answered over the years. I do apologize in advance if that;s what I'm doing.

By the way, I am currently drinking an excellent bitter from a recipe found on here using Clibit's AG method and everything seems to have worked so very well, but of course during the brew I come up with ideas for the future and wonder if I am doing something that is just completely wrong!

@JonBrew That's really interesting, I don't re-use yeast except for bread sometimes, but the trub may actually contain chemicals that could help settling out of solids, proteins, high molecular weight organic acids and the like from the grain and hops.

 

[Dutto]

Just to sort out the terminology:

1. Trub is the product seen at the bottom for the FV after fermentation.
2. Debris is the product found at the bottom of the Boiler after boiling.
3. Cold Break Debris is produced as a result of cooling the boiled wort and normally happens in the Boiler.
4. Whirlpooling is when the wort in the Boiler is spun round so that the Debris moves to the centre of the Boiler.

So what I do is:

1. Add a Protafloc tablet to the Boiler for the last 10 minutes of the boil. (This will assist the flocculation of the debris when the wort is cooled.)
2. Insert the Coil Cooler into the Boiler and cool the wort down to +/-20*C.
3. Lift out the Coil Cooler and Whirlpool the wort in the Boiler.
4. Wait at least 15 minutes to allow the debris to settle in the centre of the Boiler.
5. Drain off the wort directly into the FV. (I don't use a filter or a sieve because, to reduce the rate of flow the take-off is only 8mm diameter and to leave most of the debris behind, it is set about 10mm above the bottom of the Boiler.)
6. I make up the volume in the FV to 23 litres with cold water, get an OG, add Yeast Nutrient and then pitch the Yeast.

With regard to the Points made in the OP, I am given to believe that any difference to the flavour or clearing of a brew is marginal; especially if you use the "2+2+2 System".

Hope this helps.

 

[JohnB]

@Dutto I have those protofloc tablets, but never used them, they are a recent addition to my growing chemical laboratory! Now you have given me ideas, and it looks a lot simpler to do than the messing around I have been doing. It'll need a bit of extra engineering - if that's what 6 feet of plastic pipe can be called - to get the warm water from the boiler position back to the sink (simples). And as I see it, it'll all settle in the bottom of the boiler and the wort should come off a damned sight cleaner than what I'm getting by sploshing everything about in the boiler to get it to the FV and stirring everything up! And done in one process, brilliant, thanks.

 

[JonBrew]

Just to sort out the terminology:

1. Trub is the product seen at the bottom for the FV after fermentation.
2. Debris is the product found at the bottom of the Boiler after boiling.
3. Cold Break Debris is produced as a result of cooling the boiled wort and normally happens in the Boiler.

Sorry for being pernickety but trub is a German word which means "sediment" and it is used to describe the hot and cold break material, along with hop debris, left in bottom of the kettle/whirlpool after the wort has been boiled, cooled and then transfered etc. So whilst trub is found at the bottom of the FV after fermentation, along with yeast etc, the term is also relevant to what I was discussing (the break material).

 

[Bigjas]

Here is my experience of this topic......

I used to worry about getting the hop debris and break material from the boiler in to the fermenter. So I would whirlpool, wait for it all to settle and then transfer through a hop sock and a sieve with fine mesh material in it to prevent any unwanted stuff in my wort. As time has gone on and I have become more experienced and read quite a lot on the different topics within brewing, I have experimented with different methods within my brewing. Now I tip everything from the boiler in to the fermenter, no whirlpool, no filtering. I usually ferment for at least 2 weeks and sometimes I will cold crash, but recently have not bothered. I am careful when racking in to my kegs from the fermenter and the beer is usually fairly clear at this point. In my experience, I have found no difference in taste from not filtering in to the fermenter. I usually leave the kegged beer to condition for 3 or 4 weeks and its usually pretty clear by then. After a few more weeks (if there is any left) it is very clear.

I'm not saying I am right, but for me and my methods its not worth filtering in to the fermenter.

 

[Metacomet]

Dutto's process is similar to mine.
I use either muslin socks or a hop spider to contain the hops in the boil. These come out before I cool (or during if the style calls for it) which keeps most of the plant matter out of the wort.

I've tried waiting to let the cold break trub settle so I can leave it behind, but always give up when I see how much wort is left behind, and just chuck it all into the FV. It all compacts during fermentation, even more so if you're able to cold crash it.

 

[Cwrw666]

I have those protofloc tablets, but never used them, they are a recent addition to my growing chemical laboratory!

Protoflec is not a chemical - it's just seaweed. Irish moss in fact concentrated. Vegetarian gelatine.

 

[Cwrw666]

Also, after the boil the gunk in the bottom of the boiler - hop debris and hot break sludge - is totally sterile so if you get it into your fermenter it's not rotting away spoiling your beer as that requires bacteria, and you haven't got any, or rotting trub would be the least of your problems.
I often use trub from the bottom of the FV after bottling instead of using fresh yeast. I can see why having gunge from your boiler in it would be far from ideal as no matter how good your sanitation, some bugs will get a foothold in there.

 

[hichaechoc]

I BIAB in a Burco. I use pelleted hops and don't try to contain them. At the end of the boil I cool with a coil to 20ºC and then transfer to my primary using the tap and/or tipping. After 2 weeks fermentation I transfer through the tap to my secondary leaving behind as much solid material as possible. I also add finings in the form of a gelatin solution at this stage. After 2 weeks in the secondary I bottle and it's pretty clear at this stage, to the point it can take three to four weeks for what yeast is there to chomp through the priming sugar and firm up my PET bottles. I used to try and leave the solids in the boiler and also cold crash but I'm not noticing any issues with my current method.

 

[Dutto]

Protoflec is not a chemical - it's just seaweed. Irish moss in fact concentrated. Vegetarian gelatine.

Now stop being pernickety, I'm sure you know what he meant!

BTW

When creating a whirlpool ...

"Whirlpooling is a common method used in commercial breweries to separate hop pellets and trub from wort after the wort boil. Essentially the wort is pumped into the whirlpool vessel at rapid velocity, usually about 15 feet per second, to cause the wort to start spinning like a whirlpool."

... and not having a whirlpool vessel or a pump, I just use a paddle.

I've tried using a hand-drill and de-gassing wand. It creates a great whirlpool but it also breaks up the flocculated debris; which defeats the practice of boiling the wort with a Protafloc Tablet.

Ref:
https://byo.com/mr-wizard/what-does-whirlpooling-your-beer-mean-and-how-do-you-do-it/

 

[ACBEV]

is there any benefit to syphoning off the wort a second time to remove more of the trub before pitching the yeast?

No need to filter.... I do a boil, add hops, cool and tip the lot into the FV, job done. My beer comes out crystal clear and lovely. I've never had issues transferring all the gunk. A lot of brewers like to filter out the hops or use something to keep them seperate, but I'm happy with what I do.

 

[Hoppyland]

.....like every newbie,I am prone to asking stupid questions that maybe others have asked and answered over the years.

Don't worry about that! Firstly, your questions are far from stupid. Secondly, even if asked before the answers are likely buried deep in the forum & not easy to find!
As you'll have seen from the replies so far, there are many ways to make good beer. You won't go far wrong if you follow Dutto's advice, especially the "2+2+2" routine.
Regarding trub, I'm with those who don't worry and add the lot to the fermenter. I've never done any "scientific" comparisons, but I feel that it makes little difference. I'm unusual, though, in that I transfer off the trub into a secondary fermenter after about 7-10 days, so contact with the trub is limited. Why do I do this? Well, mainly habit I guess. I remember reading about the "double drop" method (too) many years ago, thinking that it sounded good & so I tried it & liked the result. I've done it ever since. Would my beer taste different if I didn't? I honestly haven't a clue!!
Do I think you should do it? No. At least not at first, as it does risk introducing airborne infection and also aeration (which can spoil the taste of the beer through oxidation). I haven't had problems, but I thoroughly purge after transfer from a large CO2 cylinder.
As you're fairly new to AG, keep things as simple as possible at first. Try to keep your fermentation temperature right, try not to let air mix with the beer after fermentation & you should quickly get a very reliable product if your cleanliness is up to sctratch.

 

[Zephyr259]

...snip I boil the wort and hop additions then it comes to getting the stuff into the 5 gallon FV. It is sat on a stool, just in front of the cooker. I use a large Pyrex measuring jug to dip out the wort, hops, and all and pass it through a sieve (the tap on the boiler is less than useless). I tried muslin, but it blocked up at each addition, so I pass everything through her flour sieve. this removes most of the trub, which I dump in the bin. The FV is then lifted up onto the work surface next to the sink where I run a copper coil cooler, a simple device, converted from an ancient vodka experiment By the time it is cold enough to pitch I usually end up with about 2 inches of really fine crap in the bottom of the FV, snip...

Is there a reason you're chilling after transferring to your FV rather than chilling in the kettle? This is more standard practice and would let your cold break (and a lot of other gunk) settle in the kettle then get sieved out in the transfer. Down side I guess is that your sieve and jug would have to be sanitised where if they are transferring boiling wort the residual heat would probably ensure everything's ok. Just something that caught my eye.

 

[Oneiroi]

This was an interesting read on the subject: http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

Especially re clarity.

They would be the first to point out that one data point doesn't prove much, but I'd hazard the conclusion that a) the effects are complicated and b) probably not worth worrying about too much until everything else is dialled in.

 

[ACBEV]

That was a jolly good read... I'm one of those lazy buggers who dumps everything from the boiler into the FV... My beers almost always are super clear and I think are lovely to drink... From that experiment its seems the more kettle muck you transfer to the FV you end up with a clearer beer with a finer taste.

 

[Dutto]

......... From that experiment ..........

Except ...

"Two Home Brewers = At Least Three Opinions"

 

[ACBEV]

That's true... I often can have two opinions on the same topic. Anyway I was justifying my laziness and I'm happy that others are going the extra mile (for no benefit).