Thoughts on my Struise Pannepot clone recipe?

[strange-steve]

I'm wanting to brew another big Belgian beer soon cos my Westy clone is almost done (and past its best now anyway), and Struise Pannepot is one of my favourite beers so decided to add it to the list. I've had a look about the internet and this is the recipe I've come up with, any thoughts or comments would be appreciated:

Struise Pannepot Clone
Belgian Dark Strong Ale

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 18
Total Grain (kg): 7.95
Total Hops (g): 55
Original Gravity (OG): 1.098
Final Gravity (FG): 1.017
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 10.6 %
Colour (SRM): 38
Bitterness (IBU): 28
Boil Time (Minutes): 75

Grain Bill
----------------
6.750 kg Pilsner (85%)
700 g Candi Sugar, Dark (9%)
250 g Special-B (3%)
150 g Carafa II malt (2%)
50 g Cafe Malt (0.5%)
50 g Chocolate (0.5%)

Hop Bill
----------------
35 g Bramling Cross Pellet (6.3% AA) @ 60 Minutes
20 g Hallertau Mittlefrueh Pellet (6.3% AA) @ 30 Minutes

Misc Bill
----------------
5 g Orange Zest @ 2 Minutes
3 g Coriander Seed @ 2 Minutes
1 g Nutmeg @ 2 Minutes
1 g Thyme @ 2 Minutes
1 g Cinnamon @ 2 Minutes
1 Vanilla Pod @ 2 Minutes

10 g Bourbon Soaked Oak Chips for 7 Days

Notes
----------------
Mash in at 55c for 10 mins
68c for 60 mins
77c for 15 mins

Pitch 2 packs of T-58 yeast at 20c and ramp up to 24c
After fermentation complete drop to 5c and hold for 6 weeks before bottling

I haven't really used many spices before in beers so decided to go easy with them, I'd rather it be under-spiced than over. Also I don't think the standard Pannepot is oak aged, but I thought the oak chips would add a nice subtle complexity and perhaps a slight Reserva character.

 

[Ajhutch]

Ive never had the original, but this sounds great, my view is you should brew it and send it to me!

I also don’t have a great deal of experience of using spices in beer but from a cooking perspective I would think of those spices as packing a lot more flavour than orange zest but it’s hard for me to know how to translate that vague thought to a beer recipe!

 

[Sadfield]

Great beer.

The spices levels look well judged to me, safe in that they'll probably underpin the yeast rather than being noticeable as distinct flavours.

As you are using two packs of dry yeast, swapping one for another Belgian yeast could add a bit more complexity.

Good luck, hope you get close.



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[Ajhutch]

As you are using two packs of dry yeast, swapping one for another Belgian yeast could add a bit more complexity.

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Ooh I like that idea

 

[strange-steve]

Ive never had the original, but this sounds great, my view is you should brew it and send it to me!

I also don’t have a great deal of experience of using spices in beer but from a cooking perspective I would think of those spices as packing a lot more flavour than orange zest but it’s hard for me to know how to translate that vague thought to a beer recipe!

Thanks for the reply, I think the idea is that the orange and spices be very subtle. There's a quote in Brew Like a Monk I think by the brewer at Rochefort who says something like "if you can tell what spice has been used then it's been overused”. I suppose I can add a spice tea at bottling if it need a touch more. And I'll be sure to send one your way

 

[strange-steve]

Great beer.

The spices levels look well judged to me, safe in that they'll probably underpin the yeast rather than being noticeable as distinct flavours.

As you are using two packs of dry yeast, swapping one for another Belgian yeast could add a bit more complexity.

Good luck, hope you get close.



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Good idea, any thoughts on what to use? I don't really know much about dry yeasts, and I'm a little dubious about the T-58, but apparently that's what De Struise use. Any experience with it?

 

[rats_eyes]

I had a go at a Pannepot clone a few years back. My recipe was very similar, based loosely on a recipe on the mad fermentationist site and some other sources. It worked well but was spicey as hell for quite some time. The remaining bottles are nearly four years old now and have mellowed out a lot. Here is my recipe...

Boil Size: 27.71 L Post Boil Volume: 19.79 L
Batch Size (fermenter): 19.00 L
Bottling Volume: 19.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.096 SG
Estimated Color: 40.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 31.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 69.70 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 69.7 %
Boil Time: 95 Minutes

6.350 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (3.9 EBC) 80.8 %
0.220 kg Corn, Flaked (2.6 EBC) 2.8 %
0.220 kg Special B Malt (354.6 EBC) 2.8 %
0.060 kg Carafa II (811.6 EBC) 0.8 %
0.060 kg Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC) 0.8 %
0.950 kg Sugar, Table (Sucrose) [Boil] (2.0 EBC) 12.1 %

45 g Bramling Cross [6.00 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 28.7 IBUs
14 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 3.2 IBUs
0.25 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins)
0.25 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins)
5.00 g Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 2.0 mins)
3.00 g Coriander Seed (Boil 2.0 mins)
1.00 g Cinnamon Stick (Boil 2.0 mins)
2.0 pkg SafBrew Specialty Ale (DCL/Fermentis #T-58)

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 7.860 kg
Mash In 66.3 C 80 min
Mash Out 75.6 C 10 min
Fly sparge with 6.52 L water at 75.6 C

 

[GerritT]

I always use 1 teaspoon Irish moss per 16 liters. And I assume you're using broken coriander seeds?

 

[strange-steve]

@rats_eyes
Thanks for the response Paul, you're also definitely on the list to receive one of these when I get round to it as a repayment for those fantastic imperial stouts a couple of years back. How about an eisbock in the meantime? You still at the same address, Cattofield Place? I sent one to Mark a while back, and he gave me some good feedback, would be interested in your thoughts too.

Anyway, yeah the mad fermentationist was my main source for this recipe along with the De Struise site and CSI. It's interesting that yours was very spicy because you've even less spice than my recipe. I know Jamil recommends adding spices via a tea at bottling so it can be done to taste, I wonder now if that might be the way to go for this cos I don't really want to have to wait 4 years for it. Yours looks rather light at 41 EBC, De Struise lists it at 80 something from memory. Did you not use any dark candi sugars/syrups? Also what's your thoughts on the T-58 yeast?

 

[strange-steve]

And I assume you're using broken coriander seeds?

Yeah crushed in a pestle before adding.

 

[Sadfield]

Good idea, any thoughts on what to use? I don't really know much about dry yeasts, and I'm a little dubious about the T-58, but apparently that's what De Struise use. Any experience with it?

No, not T-58, sorry. It sounds very phenolic, peppery from peoples comments. Interestingly, Candysyrup.com recommend WY3522 (Achouffe) for Pannepot gran reserva http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pannepot_gran_reserva_-_041.pdf, so perhaps another more balanced yeast will tame it a little. I see the madfermentionist uses a different yeast, perhaps his spicing replicates the phenolics Struisse get from T-58. The two together may be too much as @rats_eyes found. I wonder if Struisse are a bit more classically Belgian and go with a simple spicing of coriander and orange, with T-58?

MJ do 4-5 different Belgian yeasts so there may be one that'll offer something different. And then there's Safale - BE256 Abbaye and Lallemand Abbaye.

 

[rats_eyes]

@strange-steve
An eisbock would be great! I'm still at the same place, indeed. I'll see if I've anything to trade.

I was surprised at the level of spice in my beer, especially with a FG of 10.20 which I thought would have hidden it a bit. I home-made some candi-style syrup using the 950g table sugar. It was on the hob a long time and was very dark. Beersmith's colour estimate was way off, so it's safe to ignore that. I haven't opened one of these for a while, might have one tonight!

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[strange-steve]

@Sadfield
Yeah I saw that CSI recommended 3522, which I do really like, but it seems very different from the descriptions of T-58.

I actually got the various spices from an archived page direct from De Struise (here) which admittedly is for the Reserva, but I think they're the same recipe. All the spices I've used above are in their ingredients list, (although it needs translated from Dutch.)

 

[strange-steve]

@strange-steve
An eisbock would be great! I'm still at the same place, indeed. I'll see if I've anything to trade.

I was surprised at the level of spice in my beer, especially with a FG of 10.20 which I thought would have hidden it a bit. I home-made some candi-style syrup using the 950g table sugar. It was on the hob a long time and was very dark. Beersmith's colour estimate was way off, so it's safe to ignore that. I haven't opened one of these for a while, might have one tonight!

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Interesting that your attenuation was 79%, I expected quite a bit higher from what I've read. Maybe I should drop my mash temp a bit...
How did you find the flavour profile of the T-58 anyway?

 

[rats_eyes]

@strange-steve
It's quite hard to tell what any one component brings to the table in thus beer, as the flavours are so huge. This was the only brew that I've used t-58 on, so I don't have anything else to compare it too. I'll try one tonight and feed back!

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[Sadfield]

There are so many variables when it comes to yeast performance, maybe CS found WY3522 performed better on a different scale to Struisse using T58.

I suppose it depends how close T58 will nail the clone vs using a yeast that you know will deliver good results.

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[strange-steve]

I'm also planning a more sessionable Belgian pale ale, so I might just go for the 3522 and split it for both. Two birds etc.

 

[peebee]

I've used T-58 on a couple of "Belgium" style strong beers. Going back a bit (2015 and 2016) but both had comments on how "estery" they were. Very strong "banana" notes (the first mentioned something like "pineapple") and a lot of "ester induced" sweetness. But the later brew hung about for a bit, and after 18 months there was suggestion of having mellowed enormously and having started the beer much too soon and regrets for there now not being much left. The later beer was about 7% ABV (former only 5.5% - naff continental malt).

So conclusion on T-58: Using it is accepting the beer will be on a "long haul" and probably shouldn't be touched for 18-24 months. I haven't the patience to wait for one year, never mind two.

Attenuation was 68% for first, 72% for second. Sugar less than 2% for both, 1st mash had a 55 minute 62C 1st step, 2nd a 60 min. 65C step, both followed by 70-72C for 15 min. (temperature stepped, not a decoction) and 75C "mash-out" although 75C was probably never reached in either case.

 

[rats_eyes]

Just tried this for the first time in a long while. The spice is pretty smooth now. You could still call it peppery, but it's still hard to say where the spice ends and yeast character might start. It's got less body than it used to, but it's aged quite well.

I've got a 2015 pannepot in the cupboard, I might have to crack that open to compare and contrast...

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[rats_eyes]

I did the decent thing and cracked open a pannepot of similar age. It has a less in-your-face spice character I'd say, with more body, even a smooth chocolate that my homebrew doesn't have. It's still quite peppery, so I'd say the t-58 would be a good choice if you want to aim towards this. I think the main difference is the malt character, which is stronger and smoother in the de Struise beer, which pushes the balance away from the spice a bit. I'd forgotten how nice this beer is, it's fantastic stuff!

This bottle was a bit of a gusher, so I guess my home brew beat them on that at least!

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