The London Pride / ESB partigyle rabbit hole

[matt76]

TLDR: Shall I do it, and if so any tips and advice are welcome?

@dmtaylor I'm assuming you're the same guy (apologies if not!) who posted on this US forum about partigyling - if so, any tips are welcome.

@Northern_Brewer I'm 99% certain you're the same guy who posted the Fuller's brew log photos on this US forum (to be fair I've seen them on this forum too, I think from @Sadfield ). Do you have any insights? I get most of it but in particular I'm struggling to interpret the hop additions, e.g. is it 18.7kg Target or 18kg in Tun 1 and 7kg in Tun 2? Either way they seem low in proportion to the grain bill in g/L unless I'm wildly miscalculating!

I'll say right off the bat that I knew before I went down the rabbit hole:
(a) roughly (or better) what partigyling is
(b) that Fuller's partigyle ESB, London Pride and others such as Chiswick Bitter
(c) this has been covered in 2010 on Jamil Zainasheff's "Can You Brew It" series (initially unsuccessful, but the partigyled rebrew was successful)

Still, it's been an entertaining few days figuring out how I can make it work on the gear I have, and at the smaller scale I brew at (normally about 11.5L rather than 19L/5USGal).

It's also been fun hunting down old Brewing Network podcasts, listening to them to absorb the information but even more so trying to avoid being driven to violence over the sheer number of adverts (SO many adverts!!!).

One thing that jumps out at me is a lot of focus on "oh yeah, you have to partigyle it to really nail it" (which may be true) but much less emphasis on the weird fermentation temperature schedule Fuller's use.

To be continued...

 

[matt76]

References/Sources:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...imperials-neipa-from-the-horses-mouth.642756/https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/can-you-brew-it-recipe-for-fullers-london-pride.179859/Can you Brew It recipe for Fuller's ESB
Can you Brew It database
CAN YOU BREW IT: FULLERS – THE JAMIL SHOW 05-10-10
Can You Brew It: Fullers - The Jamil Show 05-10-10 | The Brewing Network
CAN YOU BREW IT: FULLERS RE-BREWS – THE JAMIL SHOW 11-08-10
Can You Brew It: Fullers Re-brews - The Jamil Show 11-08-10 | The Brewing Network
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/brew-strong-questions-with-fullers-part-1/Brew Strong - Questions with Fuller's Part 2 | The Brewing Network
BREW STRONG: 04-27-15 PARTI-GYLE BREWING
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/post2837/Basic Brewing Radio October 14, 2021 - Partigyle Techniques
https://www.basicbrewing.com/archived/basic-brewing-radio-2021Braukaiser Improved batch sparge and parti gyle calculator (link to the owner's Google Drive, you may need to request permission to access)

 

[matt76]

Normal Brewing For Me:

My normal brewing is full-volume no-sparge BIAB on an all in one 25L Klarstein Maishfest, usually starting with 15L water which nets me about 11.5L packaged. Normal grain bill is about 2kg, a bit more if I'm using specialty grains like crystal or dark malts. I use a pump to recirculate during mashing and whirlpooling. I usually mash for a few hours, and often overnight as this gets me a decent efficiency boost over the normal 60mins. Grain bag gets an almighty squeeze at the end of the mash to really wring it out. Normal boil for me is 30mins, occasionally longer.

However, I also have an old tea urn of similar size - it won't maintain a boil but is fine for mashing or heating sparge water. I virtually never use it, but I've done a decoction mash a couple of times where it's come in handy.

 

[matt76]

How I think I'm going to do it:

I've actually almost done a partigyle a couple of times - I've done a dunk sparge after the main mash and used this to make a smaller beer, one time was OK, the other time an abject failure!

Rough idea in mind is this:
- Exact grain weights and water volumes are still TBC!
- Make a big beer in the Klarstein more or less as normal, but only mash for 1 hour to leave more fermentables behind for the small beer.
- While that's mashing, heat up more water in the tea urn for the small beer.
- When mashing the big beer is complete transfer the grain bag to the tea urn to create the "second runnings" for the small beer.
- Boil, hop & chill the big beer as normal then transfer to a waiting FV.
- Transfer contents of tea urn to the Klarstein for boiling, hopping, chil and transfer to second FV.
- Blend the chilled, hopped worts as needed to something in the realms of 1.055 and 1.045 OG.

The trick as I see it is figuring out the grain weight and water volumes that will create my two worts with the right pre-boil gravities (BG) - I feel like I know my system well enough to know boil off and other losses that if the pre-boil gravity is right I'll get the right post-boil gravity.

Two other conundrums are:
1. Estimating the efficiency of the first big beer mash to estimate what BG I'll get - I can take a reasonable stab at this.
2. Estimating the BG of the second "small beer" mash - much harder, but I'm assuming for now it'll be about 40% of the "big beer" gravity, e.g. a 1.060 big beer BG will give a 1.024 small beer BG.

Still lots more planning to be done!

 

[Sadfield]

Good luck. I'll look forward to seeing this progress. It's one of those bucket list brews.


Instead of one big and one small mash, a more predictable way could be to do two identical normal gravity mashes. Avoiding the efficiency drop of a higher gravity mash.

1) Mash first mash.
2) Collect 1st runnings.
3) Transfer the grain bag to the tea urn to batch sparge.
4) Mash second mash.
5) Add 1st runnings to those from mash 1.
6) Batch Sparge with liquor from step 3.
7a) Combine the worts to get two different pre-boil gravities, you could then hop each boil differently if desired.
7b) Do two boils, first runnings and sparge, then blend into the FV.


Some Braukaiser content that may be of use.

https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparge_and_Party_Gyle_Simulator

 

[Sadfield]

https://www.beervanablog.com/beervana/2020/7/9/the-making-of-a-classic-fullers-esb

 

[stubrewworx]

Sounds interesting and worth following this thread.

I've thought about doing this myself, not necessarily Fullers; if I get another pot...

 

[Twostage]

I've done a partygyle years ago. I'll have a dig through my old notes. From memory I was making a barley wine and a bitter of my own recipe and so wasn't worried about missing any targets. Still got some of the barley wine.

 

[matt76]

Good luck. I'll look forward to seeing this progress. It's one of those bucket list brews.


Instead of one big and one small mash, a more predictable way could be to do two identical normal gravity mashes. Avoiding the efficiency drop of a higher gravity mash.

1) Mash first mash.
2) Collect 1st runnings.
3) Transfer the grain bag to the tea urn to batch sparge.
4) Mash second mash.
5) Add 1st runnings to those from mash 1.
6) Batch Sparge with liquor from step 3.
7a) Combine the worts to get two different pre-boil gravities, you could then hop each boil differently if desired.
7b) Do two boils, first runnings and sparge, then blend into the FV.


Some Braukaiser content that may be of use.

https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparge_and_Party_Gyle_Simulator
View attachment 94840

OK, I think I follow your idea - essentially you're doing 2 higher gravity mashes more or less as normal, so you'd use fresh water each time, and they end up combined.

And for the lower gravity second runnings it's almost like a very weak reiterated mash - so for the first dunk/batch sparge you're using fresh water, but second time round you're re-using this lower gravity liquor?

I'm not sure yet if I'll actually need to do a really high gravity mash but it's a useful idea just in case, thanks

The big unknown is how much is left in the grain after the first runnings, and therefore how much I'll get out of the weaker second runnings. I've got the Braukaiser "Batch Sparge and Party Gyle Simulator" Google Sheet but it gives me very different numbers for the second runnings. In part I think because it's intended for a more traditional 3V setup, or at least a more traditional sparge where a lot of higher gravity liquor is left in the grain bed.

But by contrast I do BIAB and squeeze the bejeezus out of the grain bag - I always weigh it afterwards and sometimes for a 2kg grain bill I can get the damp grain bag down to 2kg (which if you do the maths means it's got about 0.25L/kg absorption vs. the 1L/kg or so Braukaiser says is typical).

I'm planning a normal brewday soon so I might try a dunk sparge with the spent grain to see what I get out of it.

 

[Sadfield]

Two normal gravity mashes. Keeping the high gravity first runnings and low gravity second runnings separate, for blending into 2 or more worts. Whilst saving time by mashing the second whilst sparging the first.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

@Northern_Brewer I'm 99% certain you're the same guy who posted the Fuller's brew log photos on this US forum (to be fair I've seen them on this forum too, I think from @Sadfield ). Do you have any insights? I get most of it but in particular I'm struggling to interpret the hop additions, e.g. is it 18.7kg Target or 18kg in Tun 1 and 7kg in Tun 2? Either way they seem low in proportion to the grain bill in g/L unless I'm wildly miscalculating!

In the original Twitter thread, Hayley makes it clear that it's the latter, 18 in 1 and 7 in 2. Works out at about 1.16g/l by my reckoning before dry hop, it's worth noting that the average alpha is 11.4% which is pretty high by British standards.

Yes it's me, but I'm not personally that interested in cloning the Fuller's beers, I just thought it was one of those things that would be useful for more latitudinally-challenged brewers than myself. Later in that thread ESBbrewer gives a recipe that is claimed to be pretty close to Fuller's ESB.

One thing I would say having done a partigyle is that you use a faeces-ton of grain, you're effectively putting the grist for two beers in your mash tun at the same time which can be a bit of a tight fit, you may want to reduce the total amount in order to make it all go in.

You may find this useful from Ron, a breakdown of the splits of the Fuller's partigyle in 1968 - even the weakest 1.037 beer got 27% of the 1.093 first wort.
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/05/fullers-party-gyle-from-1968.html

 

[dmtaylor]

@dmtaylor I'm assuming you're the same guy (apologies if not!) who posted on this US forum about partigyling - if so, any tips are welcome.

Yep, that's me. You've got my tips. I haven't partigyled in ages so my input today would be same as last time. It's funny... looking back, in some ways maybe I knew more 6 years ago than I do now. No way I'd have that much to say today anymore. :)

 

[foxy]

Gordon Strong wrote an article for BYO Sept 2023 with step-by-step instructions.
https://byo.com/recipe/parti-gyled-english-pale-ale-and-light-mild/

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Only partigyle I've done is using the sparge of a barley wine and sparge of imperial stout.
1st runnings made the primary beers and then I sparged with acidified water.
Managed a 20 litre batch at 1.040 at my second attempt and then hopped and boiled it as a bitter from barley wine and mild from the stout.
I'm using a much bigger system so grain capacity and volume not an issue.
Partigyle compensated for the poor BHE of 60% with my 1.127 barley wine.
A " free beer " after the expensive one.

 

[matt76]

Gordon Strong wrote an article for BYO Sept 2023 with step-by-step instructions.
https://byo.com/recipe/parti-gyled-english-pale-ale-and-light-mild/

Thanks for the tip @foxy , I don't think I'd found that article. He gives a very helpful hint in his intro which you can actually see in your link - create 2 recipes in your brewing software with the same grist, but set the efficiency of the 2nd one to half of the 1st one I've seen this hinted at and talked around, but there it is in black and white

I can take a good stab at efficiency of my first mash based on experience, factoring in bigger than usual grain bill and shorter then usual mash but I've been guessing a bit about the efficiency of the second mash. Very useful to have this role if thumb spelled out in plain English

 

[matt76]

In the original Twitter thread, Hayley makes it clear that it's the latter, 18 in 1 and 7 in 2. Works out at about 1.16g/l by my reckoning before dry hop, it's worth noting that the average alpha is 11.4% which is pretty high by British standards.

Yes it's me, but I'm not personally that interested in cloning the Fuller's beers, I just thought it was one of those things that would be useful for more latitudinally-challenged brewers than myself. Later in that thread ESBbrewer gives a recipe that is claimed to be pretty close to Fuller's ESB.

One thing I would say having done a partigyle is that you use a faeces-ton of grain, you're effectively putting the grist for two beers in your mash tun at the same time which can be a bit of a tight fit, you may want to reduce the total amount in order to make it all go in.

You may find this useful from Ron, a breakdown of the splits of the Fuller's partigyle in 1968 - even the weakest 1.037 beer got 27% of the 1.093 first wort.
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/05/fullers-party-gyle-from-1968.html

Thanks, very useful tips, I'll take another look at the Twitter thread, and that link from Ron

Between all the Brewing Network podcasts (4 x 1hr I think*) and Hayley's Twitter photos of the logs I don't think there's any doubt about the recipe.

And as you say, even though my normal batch sizes are smaller than most I'm also planning to go slightly smaller still to keep everything manageable.

One thing that seems really important is to go back to these original sources for the first hand accounts, hence I provided some links above. Internet forum "digests" are useful but can miss out some important details!

 

[peebee]

London Pride? 1968? That rang a bell ...

https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2023/09/lets-brew-1968-fullers-london-pride.html
Some more parti-gyling information in that. I've got it planned (as a single gyle) for some time soon. Note all that maize! And I've set aside the Plumage-Archer barley malt for this (there was no Maris Otter barley kicking around in 1968). Those pre-1980s malts did appear to be treated different, hence you can also get "No.19 Maris Otter" heritage malt!

 

[matt76]

In the original Twitter thread, Hayley makes it clear that it's the latter, 18 in 1 and 7 in 2. Works out at about 1.16g/l by my reckoning before dry hop, it's worth noting that the average alpha is 11.4% which is pretty high by British standards.

Ha, interesting to note that since that original Twitter post at the end of 2017 Hayley is now at Siren, just down the road from me! I also noted Ron replied to her post with a couple of pictures of brew logs from 1968 (and I'm not sure it's the same one as in his blog) and I think 1899!!!

Ron mentions Export London Pride which I'd never heard of, and also confirms that what is now Chiswick Bitter used to be simply Pale Ale.

The older ones are pretty illegible to my eyes (seriously, people used to write like that???!!!) so I'm inclined to go with the most recent one!
I do wonder the extent to which these recipes have changed over the years, or maybe even stayed static (the 2017 grist is slightly different to the one mentioned in the 2010 podcast by the head brewer, but saying "about 5% crystal" doesn't mean the brew log of the time wouldn't show actually more like 7%.

 

[matt76]

London Pride? 1968? That rang a bell ...

https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2023/09/lets-brew-1968-fullers-london-pride.html
Some more parti-gyling information in that. I've got it planned (as a single gyle) for some time soon. Note all that maize! And I've set aside the Plumage-Archer barley malt for this (there was no Maris Otter barley kicking around in 1968). Those pre-1980s malts did appear to be treated different, hence you can also get "No.19 Maris Otter" heritage malt!

Ooh that's a useful link, thanks - Ron has kindly transcribed the olden days writing in the blurry photograph to something youngsters(!) like me can read

Comparing that 1968 recipe to the 2017 one... well it's different... the hops are different... as is the grist... but apart from that...

FWIW, and I know you like your heritage/historic recipes and malts, the head brewer in the 2010 podcast said they don't stick to one malt supplier but use about 4 as and when needed, but might blend malt from 2 of them at a time. I suspect the chocolate malt may be in there to even out any slight difference in colour from the base malt???

And re. single gyle vs. parti-gyle - I really do wonder how much of the character is down to the fermentation temperature schedule vs. parti-gyling.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

(there was no Maris Otter barley kicking around in 1968).

Yes there was, it was released a couple of years before.

Although there was probably a lot more of Proctor, which is an offspring of Plumage Archer and a parent of Otter. I'm not sure PA is really worth the premium over Otter myself.

I do wonder the extent to which these recipes have changed over the years, or maybe even stayed static (the 2017 grist is slightly different to the one mentioned in the 2010 podcast by the head brewer, but saying "about 5% crystal" doesn't mean the brew log of the time wouldn't show actually more like 7%.

Oh, they change quite a bit, notably the move in recent years to all-grain. In that HBT thread I've got the log from the recreation of John Keeling's first brew in the early 1980s, when there was still adjuncts in there - having tasted new and recreation side by side, you can tell the difference. No beer recipe is fixed in stone.