That homebrew whiff from a kit

[Frisp]

Folks, Its been donkeys years , over 30, since I brewed a Kit. I did a fair bit of AG giving up in 2012.

My memory of the kits back then was afull, they all had that, almost stale homebrew aroma and taste.. but they got you hammered and that was all that mattered back then

Now Im back and accumulating my gear again. and while I wait I thought Id try a kit having heard that modern kits are a world away from those old kits from the 1990's

So 1st Jan I put on a Simply ' Yorkshire bitter" using mungrove Jacks Liquid enhancer and S-04.
fermented on a bubbler for a few days at 20C (inkbird) before suing a spundy at 12 PSI till it fermented out.

Today I kegged it under closed transfer and took a FG reading.. I had a quick schlurp from the hydrometer tube.. and there it was, homebrew whiff...

Granted the sample was taken near the bottom of the fermenter and may have more yeast than the stuff in the keg. and this is what im picking up.

Im hoping it matures out over the next few weeks but im just wondering if there will always be a slight stale yeast whiff from DME and kits.. I never had the HB whiff when I was AG brewing so Im assuming it the extract im smelling

 

[Jim Brewster]

I've done around 4 or 5 of the canned kits, and had the twang every time, so not a huge fan of them myself and therefore do all grain or use dry extracts if unavoidable.

The worst twang was when I brewed a Wherry kit stronger than the instructions, and least was when I brewed a Wilko one-can kit and made up the rest with ordinary table sugar. I think both kits are Muntons produced

Not sure what causes it exactly but I suspect it's something caused by the process of concentrating the liquid malt extract. Muntons claim not to know what the cause is either but of course blame it on homebrew practices such as inconsistent fermentation temperature and water profiles, chlorination of the tap water etc.

I assume you use bottled or dechlorinated water?

 

[Frisp]

I've done around 4 or 5 of the canned kits, and had the twang every time, so not a huge fan of them myself and therefore do all grain or use dry extracts if unavoidable.

The worst twang was when I brewed a Wherry kit stronger than the instructions, and least was when I brewed a Wilko one-can kit and made up the rest with ordinary table sugar. I think both kits are Muntons produced

Not sure what causes it exactly but I suspect it's something caused by the process of concentrating the liquid malt extract. Muntons claim not to know what the cause is either but of course blame it on homebrew practices such as inconsistent fermentation temperature and water profiles, chlorination of the tap water etc.

I assume you use bottled or dechlorinated water?

Thats pretty much what I was thinking.

And its deffo not down to my brewing practices. I do pretty much what I would do around fermentation and cleanliness as if it were AG.

Only thing I havnt done is fully adjust the water profile, Im waiting on a water report coming back but my water is soft, and very little mineral in it.. I charcoal filter and add half a campdent tablet to de choronate beforehand

This has to be down to the kits

Ill just have to bide my time, and keep sampling 500ml and 660 ml bottles of beer from Sainsburgers to build my brown bottle collection while I accumulate my AG kit.

 

[fluketamer]

get a can of coopers lager. add 500 gms dextrose 500 gm of ligth DME.
seperately in 2 cups of water boil 1 oz of any cirtusy hop. zamba, citra, mosaic, etc. for 5 mins to make your hop tea,
make to 5 not 6 gallons . ferment with diamond lager yeast or 34/70 or baja at 54 degrees for 10 days raise to 64 for 3 days keg for at least a week. drink fresh for that hop taste
if you do lager this the hop will fade but the beer will get incredibly clean and crisp. like a good lager should be.
definately no twang or whiff or whatever it is you are encountering.
this use to be my house beer until the price of HME went up.
if you ferment this cold and condition it in the keg cold you will only taste crisp clean cold beer hopefully some hop character in there.
if you want added flavor steep sopme grains before you make the hop tea.
dont hate on kits. i love my coopers.,


cheers

 

[Frisp]

get a can of coopers lager. add 500 gms dextrose 500 gm of ligth DME.
seperately in 2 cups of water boil 1 oz of any cirtusy hop. zamba, citra, mosaic, etc. for 5 mins to make your hop tea,
make to 5 not 6 gallons . ferment with diamond lager yeast or 34/70 or baja at 54 degrees for 10 days raise to 64 for 3 days keg for at least a week. drink fresh for that hop taste
if you do lager this the hop will fade but the beer will get incredibly clean and crisp. like a good lager should be.
definately no twang or whiff or whatever it is you are encountering.
this use to be my house beer until the price of HME went up.
if you ferment this cold and condition it in the keg cold you will only taste crisp clean cold beer hopefully some hop character in there.
if you want added flavor steep sopme grains before you make the hop tea.
dont hate on kits. i love my coopers.,


cheers

thanks I think Ill give that a go. is that Coopers basic lager kit or something like teh European lager?

 

[Frisp]

im wondering if this is Diacetyl? but I wouldnt describe the Aroma or the taste as buttery in any way.

 

[IWasStocious]

I did about 4 or 5 kits last year and they all had that homebrew taste to varying degrees. Very noticeable in one, and less so in others.

Some were very enjoyable even if they had a slight twang.

I've no idea what causes it, but suspect that it may be to do with how long the kit has been on the shelf. The kits I bought which were just after coming into stock were much better. One that I believe would have sat around for a long time was by far the worst.

Good luck with getting back into brewing.

 

[Frisp]

I did about 4 or 5 kits earlier this year and they all had that homebrew taste to varying degrees. Very noticeable in one, and less so in others.

Some were very enjoyable even if they had a slight twang.

I've no idea what causes it, but suspect that it may be to do with how long the kit has been on the shelf. The kits I bought which were just after coming into stock were much better. One that I believe would have sat around for a long time was by far the worst.

Good luck with getting back into brewing.

Thanks, thats a very good point re shelflife..

 

[fluketamer]

thanks I think Ill give that a go. is that Coopers basic lager kit or something like teh European lager?

any of the coopers lager kits work as long as you replace the yeast. most hopped lager kits actually have ale yeast. so anyone can brew them regardless of your ability to lager.
some coopers lager kits actually have lager yeast.

heres a description of all the coopers kits yeast:
https://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie...Coopers list,details are held in confidence).
the euro lager and the pilsner both have real lager yeast. i have used it but it really needs two packs which is not supplied. i have split the batch and pitched the 1 pack in 2.5 gallons and that worked well.

I did about 4 or 5 kits last year and they all had that homebrew taste to varying degrees. Very noticeable in one, and less so in others.

Some were very enjoyable even if they had a slight twang.

I've no idea what causes it, but suspect that it may be to do with how long the kit has been on the shelf. The kits I bought which were just after coming into stock were much better. One that I believe would have sat around for a long time was by far the worst.

Good luck with getting back into brewing.

shelf life and storage is very important in hme kits.
thats why i like coopers. i buy directly from diybeer. it takes a little longer sometimes but theres less chance of it sitting around somewhere waiting to be bought.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

This may be of interest

The Homebrew Twang experiment.​

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...IoAnoECCIQAw&usg=AOvVaw1M58VXDMr_eUt9KfuGiAk2

 

[Frisp]

This may be of interest

The Homebrew Twang experiment.​

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...IoAnoECCIQAw&usg=AOvVaw1M58VXDMr_eUt9KfuGiAk2

yep that was well worth a read

 

[Frisp]

Im gonna take a little bit from each of the many observations on the " Homebrew twang experiment " link
I want to try a few adjustments ( feel free to chip in with any observaions of your own ) to my process

Starting with:
Coopers Irish stout from TMM
( hoping its fairly fresh due to its popularity, and I think it was out of stock last month but Ill note the BBF date before I start )
1kg Dark DME
a pack of Wyeast 1084 Irish yeast or WLP004 Irish ale ( cant make up my mind)

Water treatment -
our water is pilow soft and the catchment is peat over Granite so its low on almost all nutrients.

Its heavily chlorinated and has chloramines ( I know a guy, who knows a guy who works in a treatment plant)
To combat this I shall charcoal filter then add half a campden the night before. I dont think Chloramines are currently an issue as I dont have that TCP taste but Im going to hammer them out of my water to make sure

In addition I want to adjust the water profile to match the Dublin profile the night before.

Preparation:
I read a comment in the Twang experiment post about boiling the kit, and how its detrimental having boiled it adding cold water straight away.
So im going to gently heat some of the water just hot enough to melt the kit and dissolve the DME , let it cool before adding it to the rest of the cold liquor

Fermentation
will be in the " Chubby" pressure fermenter venting to a bubbler jar not under pressure.

Now the question is what temp do I ferment it at?

If I use Wyeast . The yeast has a range of 16 to 20C but starts producing fruity esthers above 18C
Im kinda tempted to ferment at 17C so not to stress the yeast .

if I use WLP004 not such an issue as its range is 18-20C so Id plump for 18

Either way it will sit on the yeast for 3 to 4 weeks

Kegging
Then pressure transfer the 19L into a Keg and again leave it unmolested for two to 4 weeks while I force carbonate the keg with 70/30 .

Im kinda hoping that using DME combined with liquid yeast may have a positive effect. I know it makes it expensive but I cant help thinking the Whiff has a touch of dried yeast to it. almost like a slice of brown bread soaking in a stale drip tray .

I intend to sniff test at every stage but not taste it until its at least 8 weeks old..
not exactly a scientific aproach but if it works it works... if it dosnt my my order for a dark farm kit will be going in whether

Any observations from you folks will be apreciated. especially my fermentation temp plan

Ill document it all in a seperate post once Im done

 

[fluketamer]

i was going to say stout kits are your best bet its hard to mess them up . and they can last longer on shelf than lager kits.
i make a great coopers stout with 1/2 pound of steeped chocolate malt. a pound of dme , and a half pound of flaked oats for added body but theres two very good threads on here on the coopers stout kit ill try to find them for you. im pretty sure theres a consensus on the best mix for the stout kit. i think it involves a can of treackle.


https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/coopers-original-stout-review.17817/
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/coopers-irish-stout-review.17818/page-4

defiantely DO NOT boil the kit

you dont even have to boil the DME just dump it in and mix.

17 is better dont stress the yeast stay away from 18 if you can
dont use a secondary nobody does anymore. the clarity benefit doesnt outweight the risk of infection and oxidation.

unless on oak or fruit or in a abrrel or something dont secondary

no need to take it off the yeast. the yeast cake helps beer . it took many years for homebrewers to figure this out.

if serving on beer gas which i highly reccomend than carb it to only 1-2 volumes with straight co2 for a few days then change to high pressure beer gas for that creamy guiness pour.

 

[Frisp]

i was going to say stout kits are your best bet its hard to mess them up . and they can last longer on shelf than lager kits.
i make a great coopers stout with 1/2 pound of steeped chocolate malt. a pound of dme , and a half pound of flaked oats for added body but theres two very good threads on here on the coopers stout kit ill try to find them for you. im pretty sure theres a consensus on the best mix for the stout kit. i think it involves a can of treackle.

hmmm food for though

 

[Frisp]

defiantely DO NOT boil the kit

you dont even have to boil the DME just dump it in and mix.

now this could be interesting. could this be where the whiff comes from, dumping a can of concentrate into 3L of recently boiled water?
which begs the question how little heat to dissolve the concentrate /dme?

no need to take it off the yeast. the yeast cake helps beer

ill remove the secondary step. how long could I leave it sit on the yeast before kegging ?

 

[fluketamer]

now this could be interesting. could this be where the whiff comes from, dumping a can of concentrate into 3L of recently boiled water?
which begs the question how little heat to dissolve the concentrate /dme?

ill remove the secondary step. how long could I leave it sit on the yeast before kegging ?

no the off flavor or twang u are getting isnt from the heat of the water.
especially if dme is unopened you definitely dont need to boil it.
there are many reports of not boiling dme. LME also doesnt have to be boiled , but if not prehopped we need to boil to get the hops in (sort of- you can get hop flavor without boiling wort but its not efficient . like hop teas or oils)

dr hans sort of doesnt boil. he just adds boiling water.

https://www.youtube.com/@DrHansBrewery
when my numbers are low ill just add fresh unboiled dme to the FV to bring up my gravity you dont even really have to stir it . the yeast will eventually find it and eat it. but i like to always make sure its fully dissolved.


primary vs secondary:

i always leave my beer for at least 2 weeks on primary regardless of when the fermentation stopped. 3 weeks is always better. i try not to leave it more than 3 weeks but i have with no ill effects. others i have seen frequently leave it for up to 4 weeks on primary.

usually people report better beer with 3-4 weeks primary

 

[Frisp]

no the off flavor or twang u are getting isnt from the heat of the water.
especially if dme is unopened you definitely dont need to boil it.
there are many reports of not boiling dme. LME also doesnt have to be boiled , but if not prehopped we need to boil to get the hops in (sort of- you can get hop flavor without boiling wort but its not efficient . like hop teas or oils)

dr hans sort of doesnt boil. he just adds boiling water.

https://www.youtube.com/@DrHansBrewery
when my numbers are low ill just add fresh unboiled dme to the FV to bring up my gravity you dont even really have to stir it . the yeast will eventually find it and eat it. but i like to always make sure its fully dissolved.


primary vs secondary:

i always leave my beer for at least 2 weeks on primary regardless of when the fermentation stopped. 3 weeks is always better. i try not to leave it more than 3 weeks but i have with no ill effects. others i have seen frequently leave it for up to 4 weeks on primary.

usually people report better beer with 3-4 weeks primary

thanks Ill rework the method

 

[Frisp]

i make a great coopers stout with 1/2 pound of steeped chocolate malt. a pound of dme , and a half pound of flaked oats for added body

how are you using these in the kit?

 

[MashBag]

I have always thought this is the kit, not the brewer. Same applies to wine. They all have a twang.

I strongly suspect the preservative dosage.
Sulphite.

 

[Frisp]

I have always thought this is the kit, not the brewer. Same applies to wine. They all have a twang.

I strongly suspect the preservative dosage.
Sulphite.

are there sulphites in DME as well?