Sultanas versus grape juice compounds for white wine

[tonyhibbett]

Frustrated by the lack of clear information about the amounts of glucose and sucrose added to grape juice concentrate in wine kits, I have decided to try using purely sultanas and water.Raisins are not so good as they are somewhat caramelised, which is why they are darker.
Both are mostly produced from Thompson seedless grapes, which closely resemble chardonnay in flavour. These grapes are used in the US to make so-called chablis and it was palmed off to Australian wine producers as chardonnay juice and no one realised until the supplier got found out!
I can get 2 kilos of sultanas for £5. This is the equivalent of 8 kg of fresh grapes. They contain 70% sugar, by weight. By adding 6 litres of water, you get about 8 litres of must, including 2 kg of pulp, 70% of which will convert to alcohol and co2, on a roughly equal basis, leaving 600 ml of solids to be removed and about 700 ml of alcohol, leaving about 6.7 litres, with up to 20% sediment, about 1.3 litres. After racking, this leaves about 5.4 litres of must. After a second racking and fining, there should be enough for 6 bottles of wine made without added sugar. I have yet to try it, but compare this to the Wilco 30 bottle kit, in which the equivalent grape content is a mere 10%. More than half the can is glucose syrup and sugar, to which you add even more sugar. I tried one, and even though the sg went down to 0994, because of the excessive amount of glucose syrup, it tasted sweet.
The only pure gjc they sell is £2.75 for 220 grams. To make a gallon of wine with it without sugar would cost about £24. They no longer sell Youngs Definitive white grape juice compound for medium white. It's called compound, (not concentrate) because it contains an unspecified amount of glucose syrup, and it's called medium because that glucose syrup contains unfermentable sugars which prevent you making a dry wine. A small amount, say 10%, would have little effect in this respect, which implies the inclusion of significantly more than that. I can still get it from my lhbs/chemist, but at £8.50 per 900 gram can, I won't be buying any more.

 

[bobsbeer]

Not tried using just sultanas in a batch, but worth a try. I often put in 100g or so in a white juice wine. One thing I would exppect is that the colour will come out as a gold. I find that even adding 100g affects the colour making it more golden. How are you going to chop them up? I usually blitz mine in a food processor with a bit of water, but not 2 kg. :lol:

 

[Pearlfisher]

Aren't some sultanas waxed? and would it make a difference?

 

[GeorgeSalt]

Aren't some sultanas waxed? and would it make a difference?

I'll get my coat.. ..

 

[RobWalker]

they're in every flippin winemaking book, so they can't be bad! soaking in hot water then rinsing should take the wax off...

 

[Brewtrog]

I've got a raisin wine on the go at the moment, the raisins were coated with veg oil, but a few rinses quickly got that off, it was a nice quick ferment, loads of sediment though. Am now leaving it to clear. It tasted good when I racked it, so I would imagine sultanas would work fine.

 

[tonyhibbett]

The Aldi ones have a small amount of palm oil and no wax or prervatives.
I think I'm going to need a bigger food processor!

 

[tonyhibbett]

Having previously used raisins, I found that the strained pulp weighed half that of the original quantity. Since raisins are 70% sugar, by weight, I would have expected the fermented pulp to weigh 30% of the original, not 50%, so what accounts for the other 20%? Some of it must be dead yeast trapped in the pulp, and the rest must be water absorbed from the must, so very little waste in fact. However, after straining, a considerable amount of fine, light sediment forms which cannot be strained, but this is no different to the amount of waste resulting from using fresh grapes so quite acceptable.
Originally, 'British' wine was made in this way, before the days of concentrate, but made to the perceived British taste at the time, sweet and heavy, and like the food, overcooked!
Strictly speaking, British wine is what we all make when using imported gjc in kits, the quality of which has improved beyond recognition, in most cases, over the years. As far as I know, these kits attract VAT, and in some cases, import duty, whereas sultanas are classed as 'foodstuffs'.
By the same token, you can buy dried elderberries sold as wild bird food (technically animal fodder) for half the price as the same stuff sold as a winemaking ingredient.
Which leads me to using it to made sultana wine red!

 

[Pearlfisher]

Frustrated by the lack of clear information about the amounts of glucose and sucrose added to grape juice concentrate in wine kits, I have decided to try using purely sultanas and water..

Please could you post the method and recipe you intend to use for this ,it's got me very interested in trying to make some.

 

[tonyhibbett]

Quite simple. My plan is:
To 4 litres of hot water in a bucket add 2 kg of chopped/minced sultanas (5 x 400g packs from Aldi for £5). Use a large food processor. When cool, add yeast. 5 grams of oak chips optional. Take a reading. 1090 is fine. It may be lower because not all of the sugar may have been extracted at this stage. After 5 days of stirring, strain with fine mesh bag, extracting as much liquid as possible. This should remove about a kilo of solids, leaving about 5 litres of must. Transfer this to dj and fit airlock. Initially there will be a thick layer of sediment, which will gradually settle. When the sg is down to about 1010, rack and allow to ferment to dry, 1095 or less, hopefully. (If fermentation stops prematurely, rack and add a teaspoon of yeast nutrient).
Rack again, degass and apply finings. 'Clear It' works very well. If the first dose doesn't quite do the job, a second dose may be required. It may taste a little harsh at this stage. If not, drink it, otherwise leave in jar with a crushed campden tab for a week in a cool place then bottle it, and date the labels. Put 1 bottle in fridge and sample next day. If still harsh, store bottles in wine rack and leave for a month, or 2, or 6...
It's supposed to resemble chardonnay.

 

[alanywiseman.]

I understand your frustration at the grape concentrate avalible. I have been reading Bill Smiths book Award Winning Wines and he is a strong advacate for fermenting the sugar and grape concentrate before adding the fruit. He claims it give a better bouquet, and fruiter taste.

I plan to give it a go with some elderflower wine this year but can not find grape juice that I am happy with so may try this then add the flowers for a day or to at teh very end of fermentation.

 

[Grand gris]

I understand your frustration at the grape concentrate avalible. I have been reading Bill Smiths book Award Winning Wines and he is a strong advacate for fermenting the sugar and grape concentrate before adding the fruit. He claims it give a better bouquet, and fruiter taste.

I plan to give it a go with some elderflower wine this year but can not find grape juice that I am happy with so may try this then add the flowers for a day or to at teh very end of fermentation.

I have never tried this and I love the elderflower taste.

Would I ferment the GJ, sugar etc and then just add this to ferment on the flowers for 10 days or so

 

[Pearlfisher]

Thanks Tony.

 

[tonyhibbett]

I have tried adding fresh (and defrosted) fruit late, as decribed and found the aroma and taste initially quite pronounced. However, after just a couple of weeks maturing, this effect was dramatically reduced, but still there. This is no bad thing as I was trying to improve a cheap red wine kit rather than make a raspberry flavoured drink!
I have made loads of elderflower wine, some great, some aweful 'catty' stuff. The trick is to be highly selective. The trick is to pick flowers on a sunny day when they have just opened. Smell is a good guide. Bunches with stale or unopened florets should be rejected. Quality varies significantly from tree to tree and their locations.

 

[wilsoa1111]

this makes alot of sense... also what i decided to do with my elderberry wine- just couldnt face any more berry picking and stripping

i wonder if using better quality sultanas would improve the wine??? eg organic etc only issue is would double the price...

lobbing some in the tesco order next time, maybe combine with some dried stuff eg teabags/hops/peel for the flavours desired

 

[alanywiseman.]

THinking a bit more on this, has anyone ever used a kit wine as a base. So for example if making say 5 gallons of fruit wine why not start with 2 beaverdale Chardonny kits, use the grape juice and add a bit of sugar? Would this not be better than the grape concentrates/compounds?

 

[tonyhibbett]

Regarding organic sultanas, I would suggest you save your money. The main thrust of organic farming is the use of animal and plant based compost, rather than chemicals to fertilize the soil. Generally, grapevines are given little of no fertilizer as this tends to produce leaves and branches at the expense of fruit.

 

[tonyhibbett]

It was in fact a Winebuddy cabernet sauvignon that I was trying to improve, by adding dried elderberries, (mainly for deeper colour) at the start, and a pack of frozen 'fruits of the forest' towards the end. The result was a fruitier wine with more body and a deeper colour, but still not remotely cabernet sauvignon! It could be argued that omitting the fruit at the end may have been better, as the flavouring pack for the kit is red and blackcurrant concentrate. The main problem with the kit is you get 1 litre of gjc (which is at least pure) for 22 litres of wine. You can get away with that for whites, but not reds.
However, the sultana, for body and dried elderberry, for colour, is worth a try, especially as I have 1.8 kilos which have passed their best before date!

 

[alanywiseman.]

So have been searching far and wide for good concentrate and may have a solution. The Home Brew Shop supply Larsen grape concentrate that is 100% grpae concentrate (plau a couple of preservtives) and should ferment dry. They state that the grape juice hits 66 brix (SG 1.325). I think I will give this stuff a shot for my elderflower wine. Will probably grab the red as well to try with something else.

 

[tonyhibbett]

Since a litre of it weighs over a kilo, the shipping cost is £6.50, plus £9.12 for the concentrate, including vat. Total for 1 litre: £15.62. This compares well with the 6 Wilco tins required to make the same amount at £16.50, without delivery, and also the Youngs Definitive, at £8.50, without delivery, for 0.7 litres (900 g) with an unspecified amount of glucose syrup and a brix of 60. 2 litres would cost £24.74. Let's examine this: A Winebuddy 30, £23 from Tesco Direct plus £3 for sugar, £26 collect price total, including 1 litre of gjc, flavouring concentrate, the fastest fermenting yeast/nutrient pack around, stabilizer and the unique 3 pack finings which does the job in 24 hours. Also makes a perfectly acceptable white wine. No need to mess with the whites, but what about the reds, which are pretty deficient? You could double the gjc by adding a litre of the above, but the cost rises beyond that of Youngs Cellar 7, which is far superior and (hopefully) has more than 50% pure gjc in the 5.25 litres (7 kg) of compound supplied.
You would need to buy 8 litres, £72.96, for free delivery. But you are probably right, this is as good as it gets!