Sugar vs more malt

[Pennine]

I have not enjoyed the last 4 brews I have done where I have added either, inverted sugar, belgian candy syrup, brown sugar or table sugar. I am starting to wonder if I don't like what added sugar does to beer. They tend to taste thin and have flavours that don't mesh well with the malts to me. If I brew similar recipes with all malt I enjoy them much more.

Anyone else have this issue or am I crazy?

 

[Obadiah Boondoggle]

Well let's leave the question of whether or not you are crazy to one side for a moment

The whole reason we use malt rather than just some refined sugar of some kind is the point you have nailed perfectly

Richness of flavour comes from mashing malt

If you used 100% refined sugar (as in vodka) you would make alcohol but with no flavour

The whole art/science of brewing is to use different malts to create different flavours

So added sugar increases alcohol content but not necessarily flavour

Do you use anything to create your recipes e.g. the Brewfather app?

 

[Pennine]

Well let's leave the question of whether or not you are crazy to one side for a moment

The whole reason we use malt rather than just some refined sugar of some kind is the point you have nailed perfectly

Richness of flavour comes from mashing malt

If you used 100% refined sugar (as in vodka) you would make alcohol but with no flavour

The whole art/science of brewing is to use different malts to create different flavours

So added sugar increases alcohol content but not necessarily flavour

Do you use anything to create your recipes e.g. the Brewfather app?

Yep they go through beersmith and typically I keep any additions between 5-10%.

 

[prog99]

Yep they go through beersmith and typically I keep any additions between 5-10%.

What sort of beers are you making? I've used various sugars in mostly belgium styles but others too with very good results.

 

[Pennine]

What sort of beers are you making? I've used various sugars in mostly belgium styles but others too with very good results.

Brown ale and a best bitter had invert (close to golden syrup) in them. A winter warmer has dark brown sugar. The Belgian dubbel had D90 Candi syrup. Maybe I will stick to Belgians with it?

 

[Donegal john]

what purpose were you adding sugar to the last 4 beers ?
Style ?
Increasing abv ?

Your answer came as I was typing

 

[Pennine]

D Fed or what purpose were you adding sugar to the last 4 beers ?
Style ?
Increasing abv ?

You answer same as I was typing

To style and for some flavour impact.

 

[Old Fart At Play]

If you don't like the results just leave it out. Increase the malt a bit if you want same abv.

 

[peebee]

... They tend to taste thin and have flavours that don't mesh well with the malts to me. If I brew similar recipes with all malt I enjoy them much more.

Anyone else have this issue or am I crazy?

I've spent the last year messing about with sugar in beer and I am starting to reach the same conclusion that I prefer all malt beers.

But it is a personal preference! I suspect others prefer beer stretched out with a bit of sugar. And some of the beers could tempt me away from "all-malt".

I casked my latest brew yesterday. 12% sugar, an attempt at a "Mild" Ron Pattinson dug out from Truman's 1909 records for an "X" ale (Truman 1909 X). At SG 1.057 not a "Mild" like we know them now-days. It has an FG of 1.017, slightly higher than Ron had gleaned (1.014) but wouldn't fit your description of "thin"; I was manipulating the mash a tad to prevent it having a "dry" finish (the choice of yeast also has to be important in this). Emulated "No.2" Invert Sugar, giving it some colour (dark amber, still way off "brown"), much like the Ragus emulation of "No.2" Invert Sugar (and certainly none of that historically incorrect caramelised sugar nonsense you see bandied about). Next on uses "No.3" Invert Sugar (19% ); 1937 Whitbread '33 (a "Burton Ale") from Ron's "Strong Vol.2" book' another that will not be "thin".

I've only been playing with "Invert Sugar" emulations. But other sugar additions (even the "caramelised" nonsense) must have their place. Don't let yourself be put off messing with sugar, but I agree with you, "all malt" is best!

(BTW: I don't "invert" my invert sugar emulations 'cos there is absolutely no point wasting the time and effort).

 

[Sadfield]

Not so much with sugars, when used in appropriate styles, such as belgian style beers. However, this is my issue with fruited beers, the natural sugars within fruit having the same effect.

 

[Pennine]

I've spent the last year messing about with sugar in beer and I am starting to reach the same conclusion that I prefer all malt beers.

But it is a personal preference! I suspect others prefer beer stretched out with a bit of sugar. And some of the beers could tempt me away from "all-malt".

I casked my latest brew yesterday. 12% sugar, an attempt at a "Mild" Ron Pattinson dug out from Truman's 1909 records for an "X" ale (Truman 1909 X). At SG 1.057 not a "Mild" like we know them now-days. It has an FG of 1.017, slightly higher than Ron had gleaned (1.014) but wouldn't fit your description of "thin"; I was manipulating the mash a tad to prevent it having a "dry" finish (the choice of yeast also has to be important in this). Emulated "No.2" Invert Sugar, giving it some colour (dark amber, still way off "brown"), much like the Ragus emulation of "No.2" Invert Sugar (and certainly none of that historically incorrect caramelised sugar nonsense you see bandied about). Next on uses "No.3" Invert Sugar (19% ); 1937 Whitbread '33 (a "Burton Ale") from Ron's "Strong Vol.2" book' another that will not be "thin".

I've only been playing with "Invert Sugar" emulations. But other sugar additions (even the "caramelised" nonsense) must have their place. Don't let yourself be put off messing with sugar, but I agree with you, "all malt" is best!

(BTW: I don't "invert" my invert sugar emulations 'cos there is absolutely no point wasting the time and effort).

I have been reading your sugar posts, that and Ron's blog are the main reason I have been trying out invert and other sugars in various beers. I am glad that I am not the only one who feels this way about it.

I have wondered if the sugars cause more fusels to be present in the beer and maybe I need to ferment them cooler.

I will keep experimenting and maybe try brewing a side by side best bitter recipe to get a better idea of the impact of sugar.

 

[Bogdweller]

I stopped using added sugar of any description years ago and adjusted my recipes to provide all the sugars I needed from mashing. It works well for me. It's all about personal preference and style of beers you're producing that you are happy with.

 

[dad_of_jon]

I have not enjoyed the last 4 brews I have done where I have added either, inverted sugar, belgian candy syrup, brown sugar or table sugar. I am starting to wonder if I don't like what added sugar does to beer. They tend to taste thin and have flavours that don't mesh well with the malts to me. If I brew similar recipes with all malt I enjoy them much more.

Anyone else have this issue or am I crazy?

I tend to be the opposite I brew mostly with dme/dwe and sugars and sometimes I do grain. There has to be an element of personal preference.

Weirdly, I've come pretty close to making Aventinus. I was aiming for a doppel weizen bock, but was surprised how close it is. at 10%+ its easy drinking, sweet not cloying. I used two yeasts mj's bavarian and wilco's gervin. So Im doing fine with sugars. As @Obadiah Boondoggle hinted using a plain sugar is mainly for more abv at less cost. I only use sugars with a bit of flavour in them.

19/09/2022 - doppel weizen bock - brew 76 -orange cap
3kg dwe
1 kg dwe extra dark
710g GS
500g dark candi sugar
100g saaz 15 min boil - 20 stand in 4.5l water
pitched @30c mj bav yeast
18.5 litres
og 1.101
27/09/2022 - add yeast 110 ml water
priming: used 160g in 350ml water - 6ml injected per 500ml bottle.
12/10/2022 1.025 - 9.98% 16.33l bottled
24/10/2022 1.0235 - 10.18% after bottling

 

[dwhite60]

I have a mild I make now and then that finishes about four percent abv and a gravity of 1.006. I use invert syrup in it to lighten the body. Beer has plenty of flavor from crystal and a touch of black patent.

I make a stout with molasses. Molassrs does add some flavor and helps dry out the beer.

Never tried a light pale beer with sugar. It works best in something with some dark grains.

 

[scomet]

Well done Pennine you have shown exactly why people do and don't use ‘sugar’ in their brews, your key word for me was ‘thin’. Having moved on from trying to emulate one particular beer style I have now stopped using any sugar I have also stopped sparging + letting my beers mature for a few months from the many suggestions here and the results are nothing short of amazeballs! - Cheers

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I use sugar in Belgian style beers such as Kwak and Tripels, brown and dextrose respectively. I also use “sugars “ in some stouts either brown, molasses, syrup or Lactose. I use Maple syrup in a Canadian wheat beer.

 

[peebee]

Well done Pennine you have shown exactly why people do and don't use ‘sugar’ in their brews, your key word for me was ‘thin’. Having moved on from trying to emulate one particular beer style I have now stopped using any sugar I have also stopped sparging + letting my beers mature for a few months from the many suggestions here and the results are nothing short of amazeballs! - Cheers

You are in danger of being what you are claiming you are not. Which is a result of trying to pass off generalisations as fact. (No personal criticism, others here do it all the time, and I did it though I hope I'm now over it?).

I spoke earlier in this thread of a beer I made (currently drinking) that was 12% sugar, yet certainly not "thin" (FG was 1.017 at time of kegging and isn't dropping). I've another OG 1.070 "beer" (actually a historical hopped ale) that was drinkable (if you like that sort of thing) straight from the fermenter - it will likely deteriorate with time, not "mature"). But my next brew (a contemporary "barleywine") will possibly be okay at Easter but unlikely to be a patch on what it'll be having matured 'til next Christmas.

Avoid making generalisations, they'll only end up biting you back. Meanwhile you are likely to miss out on something truly "amazeballs".

 

[Jim Brewster]

Certainly no expert but I've had mixed results with sugars. I think it very much depends on the style. Belgians use sugar in various forms in some of the best beers on the world.

The yeast surely has an effect too. I think sugars in a high attenuating yeast is going to give a very dry finish but with a lower attenuation will leave a nicer residual sweetness.

 

[Loonytoone]

I agree with the OP.
The only sugar I use is for priming, otherwise it's all malt.

 

[Monkhouse]

Well done Pennine you have shown exactly why people do and don't use ‘sugar’ in their brews, your key word for me was ‘thin’. Having moved on from trying to emulate one particular beer style I have now stopped using any sugar I have also stopped sparging + letting my beers mature for a few months from the many suggestions here and the results are nothing short of amazeballs! - Cheers

I’m curious, if you’ve stopped sparging altogether do you have a massive mash tun or are you just collecting half the wort?