star san and ph

[brydo]

hi guys i just read about star san needing to used with water below 3.5 ph.i worried now about my brews being ruined as i just diluted it with tap water without knowing this. am i being paranoied or i have i made a rookie mistake.
cheers in advance

 

[ManseMasher]

You should be ok, it possibly won't have been as effective, but something is better than nothing. Lots of folk use bottled water for theirs, I use battery top up water from Halfords. Couple of quid for 5 litres.

 

[Wardy]

Do a little test. Get a pipette and put a couple of drops in a pint glass of tap water. Give it a stir and see if it goes cloudy, if it does it indicates a reaction between acid in starsan and alkaline in tap water. There will definitely be a reaction but it could vary from slight clouding to very opaque. Just add a little more starsan when you want to sanitise to counteract the offset due to the reaction but as MM said, it should still have a good sanitising effect but not as effective if your water is very hard.

 

[MyQul]

No need to worry I think. My star san goes cloudy because I have hard water.I didn't realise that the alkalinity will push the PH higher than recommended PH till recently. I tested it with some PH strips and it was above the recommended 3.5ph. I've been using starsan for about 3 years and probably above the recommended ph level. Never had a problem though.

I added a bit more star san than 1.5ml/L to the last batch I made up to get it below 3.5PH
.

 

[Wardy]

Just a quick question on starsan. I make up a batch after cleaning after a brew just to kill off any micro life that is about. I leave the batch in a closed FV and use it to sanitise equipment on the next brew. It can be sat there between 2 and 4 weeks between the brews. I've not had a problem and my chemistry head tells me this should be ok but is it? I can't see anything on the starsan that says it can or can't be saved to use again. I've also just thought on, I have a spray bottle for use when wiping down that must have been in there 3 months, would that be good to use? I can't think of any reaction that would change its properties.

 

[Budgie]

I've started using Starsan recently and I have about 4l made up in a demijohn with a bung in the top. As far as I understand it'll be ok for quite a while, but I'm sure a real life science person will be along shortly to confirm or refute my claims.

 

[dufresne]

My tap water on the right and made up starsan solution on the left....do I have anything to worry about?

SS solution goes a bit cloudy after a few days and occasionally smells sulphurous.

 

[Wardy]

That looks like there's no problem at all. I've not noticed the sulphurous smell, there must be a breakdown of the Dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid to produce that so I guess it does lose some of its sanitising potancy over time. It's probably reacting with oxygen so at a guess a solution in a spray bottle or bottle with not much air might stay good until used.

 

[lancon]

Its not the ph that's the problem, it is the amount of carbonate/bicarbonate/HCO3 that causes the cloudiness. If there is too much then the Starsan acid is used up in a chemical reaction which gives the cloudiness. If you use bottled water then I think Tesco Ashbeck is the only one with a low enough HCO3 reading, all the other ones that I have looked at have high HCO3 readings and the Starsan goes cloudy and is less effective, less effective enough not to think that you can get away with using it as a sanitiser on your brew.

 

[Wardy]

Its not the ph that's the problem, it is the amount of carbonate/bicarbonate/HCO3 that causes the cloudiness. If there is too much then the Starsan acid is used up in a chemical reaction which gives the cloudiness. If you use bottled water then I think Tesco Ashbeck is the only one with a low enough HCO3 reading, all the other ones that I have looked at have high HCO3 readings and the Starsan goes cloudy and is less effective, less effective enough not to think that you can get away with using it as a sanitiser on your brew.

It's the HCO3 that causes the alkalinity. Simple chemistry, acid + alkaline = salt + water. The cloudiness you see are the salts produced from the reaction. Once the balance is met (neutral PH) any additional starsan will be just as affective as if used in distilled water.

 

[Spapro]

Test the ph. If 3 or under its effective, regardless of clouding. Mine is always cloudy when mixed with our tap water but ph stays at 1.

No infections in 27 brews.

I re-use a cloudy, mixed batch for 4-6 weeks before mixing a fresh batch.

This is interesting:
https://lifefermented.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/brew-tips-cloudy-starsan/

 

[lancon]

If there is no cloudiness at the beginning of the diluted Starsan then it is easy to see when it has lost its effectiveness, i.e. it goes cloudy..
I appreciate the simple chemistry, but keeping it simple is why I start with low HCO3 water and then don't have to mess around with ph readings.

 

[Wardy]

If there is no cloudiness at the beginning of the diluted Starsan then it is easy to see when it has lost its effectiveness, i.e. it goes cloudy..
I appreciate the simple chemistry, but keeping it simple is why I start with low HCO3 water and then don't have to mess around with ph readings.

Have a look at Spapros post (#11) the link puts my point across better. Once you pass the neutral boundary making it more acidic it doesn't matter how cloudy it is.

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

Ordinary tap water comes out at around 7ph so getting it down to 3ph is some task,white vinegar can reduce ph levels,as bicarb can increase it.I use Vitro no rinse,its cloudy when mixed,but never had any issues.

 

[lancon]

In posts to FiveStar, makers of Starsan, they say that if the mixed new solution goes cloudy it is normally due to hardness, carbonates in the water, the maximum pH they quote is 3.5. The point I wished to make is that a simple visual check of your sanitising solution is much easier than pH testing.

 

[Brewdoug]

Has anyone actually got tap water below 3.5 pH?

 

[Wardy]

Has anyone actually got tap water below 3.5 pH?

Haha. 😉
I wouldn't like to be the plumber if they have. I checked my mix earlier and pH is 2.2 tap water was 7.2
The mix was made up with 5ml starsan in 5 litres of water. It is hazy too.
It's also snowing outside but I'm not sure if that lowers pH 😐

 

[IainM]

Five Star say that Star San is suppose to be used with water at pH 8 or lower, which will keep the pH of the final solution well below 3.0, and therefore effective pretty much indefinitely. There are some places in the UK with pH up to 9, which might be a problem. You can always look up your local area on the Drinking Water Inspectorate web site (http://www.dwi.gov.uk/about/annual-report/2014/index.html). Looking at the report for my provider, Cambridge Water (http://www.dwi.gov.uk/about/annual-report/2014/summary tables/cam.pdf), I can see that the pH measurements, at the 99th percentile, were between 6.7854 and 7.7402 (an absurd number of decimal places - I don't think they use tests that accurate!). This tells me that I am well well within the pH 8 limit, which ensures that Star San is effective.

 

[peebee]

Has anyone actually got tap water below 3.5 pH?

Ha, I was waiting for someone to question that as I read through the posts. There is an error in the original question: The solution has to be lower than pH3.5 (I thought it was 3?), not the tap water!

I did have tap water of 3.0 when I lived in NE Scotland: The acid rain scare was on (okay, so I'm old!), and NE Scotland was often exampled. Used to cause some visitors certain "urinary tract" problems!

 

[Brewdoug]

Ha, I was waiting for someone to question that as I read through the posts. There is an error in the original question: The solution has to be lower than pH3.5 (I thought it was 3?), not the tap water!

I did have tap water of 3.0 when I lived in NE Scotland: The acid rain scare was on (okay, so I'm old!), and NE Scotland was often exampled. Used to cause some visitors certain "urinary tract" problems!

:lol: Exactly what I was thinking. You'd certainly have very corroded plumbing, not to mention your insides.