Sparge Temperatures

[markp]

I'd be grateful of some thoughts and opinions on sparging temperature.

The last couple of beers I have made I have been very disappointed with their flavour. There is almost a TCP type taste there
It is only really evident in the first couple of mouthfulls and then I guess the tastebuds are overwhelmed and it isn't really that noticable.

I've looked back through my notes and gone through in my mind what I have done on each brewday....the only thing that I can come up with is perhaps sparging at too high a temperature and thus exttracting some nasty tasting compounds from the grains.

I learned my brew day processes by following brewstews first AG guided tour.
In this, he recommends a sparge temperature of 85 degrees C; and on doing some research I've found quite a temperature range quoted and used by other brewers......85 degrees seems to be the highest that people use.

I usually sparge to a gravity of 1010 (or until I have my desired pre-boil volume at no lower than 1010), so I don't think I'm going too low here.

I'd be grateful of any input that anyone has. I am so concerned about the issue that I am even prepared to post out some bottles for people to taste so I can get some further feedback.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ash]

What do you use to sanitise your equipment and do you use a campden tablet to treat your water?

 

[tubby_shaw]

As ash is alluding to, a tcp taste is usually from chlorine from either the tap water or sanitiser entering the brew somehow, but if you can eliminate this a an option you may very well be picking up an astringency from the grain.
Firstly 85C is too hot if it is hitting the grain bed at that temperature, as you can see from the picture below I monitor the grain bed temperature and do not let it rise above 70C

My sparge liquor though is at about 78C and depending on the flow through the grain bed the temperature in there is between 66 and 70C.
I would definitely not let it get any hotter than 75C.

 

[markp]

What do you use to sanitise your equipment and do you use a campden tablet to treat your water?

Hi ash and tubby, thanks for stopping by
Yes I do use campden.
I am boarderline OCD with cleaning and sanitising. My general regimen is hot water with Oxy, very thorough rinsing and then Videne at 1.25 ml/l.
I use tubbys 'how to' guide to clean my cornies.
I have bought some peracetic acid too and used this in place of Videne when I last sanitsed a keg on Sunday.

I've been reading about grain bed temperature tubby....this is why I wanted some opinion on sparge temps and I will be monitoring grain bed temperature on my next brewday.
I have a feeling that I am sparging way too hot.
brewstews thread mentioned a grain bed temp of no more than 76 degrees if my memory is correct.

Appreciate the input folks.

 

[Aleman]

To hot a temperature will leach polyphenols from the grain husks . . . along with tannins . . . and this can lead to a harsh astringent TCP like flavour. . . . Not sure what Brewstews article is using as a sparging device . . . if it is a spinney sparger then it is quite likely that the actual sparge water temp when it hits the grain is going to be around 72C as these things loose a lot of heat. . . I would aim for a grain bed temperature somewhere around 72 to 76C to be on the safe side . . . This should ensure that you have a good fluid lauter, you are terminating enzyme action, and do not run the risk of leaching excessive tannins toward the end of the sparge as the gravity falls and the pH rises.

 

[markp]

Thanks for your help too Aleman.

I do have a spinny sparger; but the more I think about it the more I think I'm sparging at too high a temperature.
I recently upgraded my hlt and did have a problem with the PID overshooting the set point....I'll have another look at this on Saturday and make sure the temperature doesn't get too high and also monitor the grain bed temps.

I kegged the Wasp 59 bitter I brewed recently on Sunday......got the same taste from the FV as I was racking to keg. At least I now know it is definately not comming from the kegs.

On the bright side......I will have plenty of spare cornies to fill once I've disposed of the crap I've brewed and I can re-evaluate the Pioneer hops in a brew that doesn't taste like medicine.

Thanks again everyone

 

[prolix]

there are infections that give the same phenol taste. clean your cold side equipment well and sanitise the chuff out of it. Belt and braces is best. :thumb:

 

[markp]

Yeah, going to give everything a thorough going over again prolix.

My missis tasted the Wasp 59 tonight and said there was no tcp or astringent taste, she said the taste is more like hops :wha:

I also tasted another bitter tonight that I brewed 11 days ago while doing a gravity check. I felt I got the same back ground taste again......oh no, another 40 litre potentially gone :sick:
Missis also tastes this one, and again said hops.

Lets see what the next one brings with another thorough clean and sanitisation and a lower sparge temp.

 

[Sean_Mc]

Good questions Mark, seems to have answered a few I hadn't really thought of :wha:

Not that I know nothing about nowt, but when I first dabble with cascade I went way overboard and originally thought the brew tasted off, but it came good with time.......basically what I'm saying is give it a few weeks, if not a couple of months before binning it

 

[highwayman]

I need to come up to you for a change and try your beers to see if it's just your tastebuds Mark :lol:

Might be a daft question ! But what temperature are you fermenting at!? I ask this because the only time I got TCP taste was when I fermented in hot weather before I got my thermo FV Cabinet and it fermented too quickly!! :cry:

I fly sparge at 78 degrees and have never had any problem :thumb:

 

Missis also tastes this one, and again said hops.

She's probably right, beer does taste very hoppy until it has been matured for at least 4 weeks.
Give yours a chance!

 

[mr_spin]

A bit of a late question for this thread -

if batch sparging, is it correct that you need to make sure the 2nd batch sparge water (infusion water) temp is not the same as the first addition - otherwise this will raise the grain bed temp even higher still?

 

[Baz Chaz]

.....if batch sparging, is it correct that you need to make sure the 2nd batch sparge water (infusion water) temp is not the same as the first addition - otherwise this will raise the grain bed temp even higher still?

:wha: err I can't see what you mean there :? If your grain bed is say 70 deg & you add more water @ 75 deg, it won't get hotter than 75 deg :idea: I can't see it get even higher than 75 or am I missing something here :hmm:

 

[Mark1964]

we usually heat the sparge water to 80 deg c but as the water loses heat during the transfer to the mash tun it usually hits the grain at 74 deg c. I dont think the tcp taste is from the water could it be left over steriliser or something like that??

 

[Baz Chaz]

..... I dont think the tcp taste is from the water could it be left over steriliser or something like that??

Since I've returned to brewing I've had one bottle that had that sort of taste, so that's what I put it down to, I must not have rinsed the bottle properly the rest of the same batch were OK :thumb:

 

[robsan77]

Good questions Mark, seems to have answered a few I hadn't really thought of :wha:

Not that I know nothing about nowt, but when I first dabble with cascade I went way overboard and originally thought the brew tasted off, but it came good with time.......basically what I'm saying is give it a few weeks, if not a couple of months before binning it

I did that with chinook thought and infection got in but after a few weeks of mellowing it is quite nice now.

 

[mr_spin]

[quote="mr_spin":3dwd78ix] .....if batch sparging, is it correct that you need to make sure the 2nd batch sparge water (infusion water) temp is not the same as the first addition - otherwise this will raise the grain bed temp even higher still?

:wha: err I can't see what you mean there :? If your grain bed is say 70 deg & you add more water @ 75 deg, it won't get hotter than 75 deg :idea: I can't see it get even higher than 75 or am I missing something here :hmm:[/quote:3dwd78ix]


no probs I can see where the confusion arises.

I'll break it down into steps. Lets say after mashing but before sparging I want to get the grain bed temp to 74C for better efficiency etc (which supposedly is the right thing to do).

1. Mash for 90 mins at 68C. Grist = 5.17Kg, mash water = 13.5L
2. Add first qty of water to sparge (8.42L) . Assuming the grain bed temp is still at 68C, According to Beersmith, in order to get the grain bed temp to where I want it, I need to add 8.42L of water at 85C to raise the mash grain bed to 74C
3. Wait 10 mins after a quick stir
4. drain the tun into the copper
5. 2nd sparge step - add 16.75L water at 85C to the tun.

However, this is the issue. I'm thinking that the grain bed temp is already at 74C but Beersmith is asking me to add water at 85C in step 5! Surely this is too hot and will raise the grain bed temp further and then rinse tannins etc into the final wort?

 

[Baz Chaz]

..............However, this is the issue. I'm thinking that the grain bed temp is already at 74C but Beersmith is asking me to add water at 85C in step 5! Surely this is too hot and will raise the grain bed temp further and then rinse tannins etc into the final wort?

With you now From that logic, yes it would increase the tempersture, if it's already 74c so adding water @ 85c would raise the temp :!:

 

[pjbiker]

If the temp in your HLT is 85 deg, if you run it through a sparger, you will find it loses a few degrees on the way, depends on your kit but I'd need HLT to be 80-83 to have grain bed temp around 75. I've not really been that anal about it so far but planning to fit a temp control system the the HLT at some point. It will take the guesswork out of setting the timer the night before etc.

 

[Good Ed]

Having read this before doing my last brew on Saturday, I monitored the grain bed temperature. As a beginner I've used BrewStew's how to guide and have the same set up with a spinney sparge arm, and heat the sparge liquor to 85C and keep about 50-60mm of liquour on top of the grain bed. With my last brew the mash was at 67C and the grain bed gradually heated up over the hour it took to sparge and at the end was at 74C. So it really depends on your set up, I suppose the important thing is to keep a check on the grain bed temperature and make sure it doesn't go over 76C.