So, what’s the point of lager?

[An Ankoù]

Getting there...

So, Pilsner is the standard.

I do like the sound of @strange-steve‘s Dunkel but it’s not what I have in mind for a lager (listen to me making judgements ).

I’m going to go with @jceg316’s suggestion of 80% Pilsner and 20% Vienna (I like Vienna so you hit a soft-spot there) and maybe Saaz. I was thinking of S34 because this looks on paper to give a more crisp finish?

Any more advice?

Saaz, defo. And MJ M84 will make a lager taste like like what lager oughta taste like. Even though my favourite strain is W- S34/70.

 

[samale]

I brewed a kolsch for Christmas for the very same reasons, I had nothing to offer lager drinker's and didn't want to waste my good stuff. I went with a simple kolsch and it went down a treat. 95% pilsner 5% Vienna. German noble hops

 

[MrRook]

The cream ale style was developed to allow ale breweries a way to compete with lager.

 

[Dutto]

Forgot to mention these:

https://www.brewersassociation.org/edu/brewers-association-beer-style-guidelines/
They are an absolute "must" resource when making a brew! What I used to do was:

• Look at what I had available.
• Go to Brewers Friend and feed the basics in.
• See what the ABV, IBU etc would be.
• Refer to the Beer Styles and see what it matched.
• Go back to Brewers Friend and "tweak" the recipe.
• Check the the Brewers Friend agreed with the Style Guidelines.
• Brew the stuff!

This was after I had made a complete balls-up of a brew and made an undrinkable "Barley Wine"! Obviously, it wasn't down to me but I never had an undrinkable brew using this method!

 

[phildo79]

Not sure why anyone would spend 7 or 8 weeks making something that you can buy easily and affordably from any off licence or supermarket.

Brooklyn lager is an amber lager that has a more robust, malty taste to it. I think there is a recipe out there for it. But even that can be bought in 6 packs now from ASDA. Pretty sure it's now BUL so expect it to not be as good as the original.

 

[samale]

Not sure why anyone would spend 7 or 8 weeks making something that you can buy easily and affordably from any off licence or supermarket.

Brooklyn lager is an amber lager that has a more robust, malty taste to it. I think there is a recipe out there for it. But even that can be bought in 6 packs now from ASDA. Pretty sure it's now BUL so expect it to not be as good as the original.

From my experience when people hear you homebrew they normally want to try some, most of my family and friends are lager drinkers if you handed them a neipa or a hoppy pale ale they would'nt have a clue and more than likely tell you it tastes like hop house 13. Which would be the end of the night

 

[fury_tea]

Not sure why anyone would spend 7 or 8 weeks making something that you can buy easily and affordably from any off licence or supermarket.

I've got to say I love a good lager. I have brewed pilsner, Märzen, Kölsch, rice lager (with yuzu) and currently brewing a Baltic porter. You'd be hard pushed to find most of those in bargain booze (apart from pilsner of course). It takes a bit longer, yes, but usually I brew a couple of other quicker things in between to tide me over.
All my attempts have been better than anything I've bought off a shelf. I don't claim to be a master brewer or anything but having control of the recipe and tasting the fruits of your labour certainly add to the experience for me.

To answer the OP, what's the point? Well I guess the point is wanting to experiment with other styles and wanting to grow as a brewer. It's technically a bit more complicated, and there's less to fall back on if your technique is off, due to the simple grain bill (in some cases) and lower hop amount (in some cases).

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Thanks all for your steer, I learned a lot in that short conversation.

I’ll let you know how I get on when I brew my first lager and maybe send out a few bottles for feedback if anyone is brave enough!

All the best.

 

[jceg316]

Thanks all for your steer, I learned a lot in that short conversation.

I’ll let you know how I get on when I brew my first lager and maybe send out a few bottles for feedback if anyone is brave enough!

All the best.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes and I'm always up for a bottle swap!

 

[Edison]

I enjoy a nice crisp cold lager on a sunny day, one of my favourites is Pilsner Urquell and if you find a good pub selling it on draft its definitely worth a try. After trying several times to recreate this I've still not perfected it, lagers are a challenge because if you're after a very clean, neutral flavour there's nowhere for any imperfections or off-flavours to hide! My current Munich Helles is tasty and improving all the time, but there's still a hint of diacetyl despite having a good boil, using plenty of yeast, adding pure oxygen and raising the temperature towards the end of fermentation. These things take more practice than I've had, but don't be put off, they're still very drinkable!

If you like Brooklyn Lager that was one of my favourite attempts. There is a recipe out there from the actual brewery. I used 100% Vienna malt and there was enough American hops in the recipe (including dry hops) to hide my mistakes!

Have fun but don't expect perfection on the first try.

 

[ericmark]

To my mind Larger and Indian pale ale both are designed to be stored, to make a Larger the yeast has to work at a low temperature, and everything has to be really clean, it takes longer to produce the alcohol, so more chance in early days of getting some thing in the brew before the alcohol preserves it.

However once made it should last for years.

But although both IPA and Larger tend to be light coloured, there is no reason why a Larger should not be dark, but because it takes so much longer to make, it means you need a lot more storage. So personally can't see the point, I can make a standard brewed beer which tastes the same as Larger in 1/4 of the time, and taking up 1/4 of the space to store.

I Europe there was a problem with heat in the summer, UK was a lot cooler, so the Larger was made so brewing could stop in the summer months, and there was a reserve to fill the gap between stopping brewing and restarting again, but they likely proper beer that much they had a festival to celebrate the first of the proper brews.

Same with IPA is was designed to be shipped to India, it had to stand the heat and the shaking of travel, it was to hot to brew in India.

Today with refrigeration there is no real reason for either, and the names have come to mean light ale, and associated with a taste, and you can buy a "Larger Kit" but it is not really Larger, it is brewed at 20 deg C as with a kit we use tap water not boiled so if we try to Larger it would go off before it had made enough alcohol to stop unwanted bacteria, and read the label on a tin of larger and it is clearly not intended to be stored for years any more, it has same life as any other beer, one questions if really a Larger, could commercial brewers really afford the space to store Larger for such a long time?

Idea is good, slow brewing with constant output, and a store that absorbs the fluctuating demand, but today the Toyota idea is used everywhere, the just in time, so nothing is stored any more.

 

[jceg316]

To my mind Larger and Indian pale ale both are designed to be stored, to make a Larger the yeast has to work at a low temperature, and everything has to be really clean, it takes longer to produce the alcohol, so more chance in early days of getting some thing in the brew before the alcohol preserves it.

However once made it should last for years.

But although both IPA and Larger tend to be light coloured, there is no reason why a Larger should not be dark, but because it takes so much longer to make, it means you need a lot more storage. So personally can't see the point, I can make a standard brewed beer which tastes the same as Larger in 1/4 of the time, and taking up 1/4 of the space to store.

I Europe there was a problem with heat in the summer, UK was a lot cooler, so the Larger was made so brewing could stop in the summer months, and there was a reserve to fill the gap between stopping brewing and restarting again, but they likely proper beer that much they had a festival to celebrate the first of the proper brews.

Same with IPA is was designed to be shipped to India, it had to stand the heat and the shaking of travel, it was to hot to brew in India.

Today with refrigeration there is no real reason for either, and the names have come to mean light ale, and associated with a taste, and you can buy a "Larger Kit" but it is not really Larger, it is brewed at 20 deg C as with a kit we use tap water not boiled so if we try to Larger it would go off before it had made enough alcohol to stop unwanted bacteria, and read the label on a tin of larger and it is clearly not intended to be stored for years any more, it has same life as any other beer, one questions if really a Larger, could commercial brewers really afford the space to store Larger for such a long time?

Idea is good, slow brewing with constant output, and a store that absorbs the fluctuating demand, but today the Toyota idea is used everywhere, the just in time, so nothing is stored any more.

Lagers and ales take the same amount of time roughly to ferment and produce alcohol, it's just IPAs benefit from being drunk quickly as hop character dissipates quite quickly, whereas lager benefits from extra conditioning time. You can ferment a lager in 2 weeks, bottle condition it for another 2 weeks and drink. It won't be bad necessarily, it's just lagering it will make it taste quite a bit nicer and also clear the beer. There's also this Brulosophy quick lager method I've tried a couple of times. It does speed things up a bit but I still think leaving the beer for a while helps. Then again, I bottle all my beer, maybe kegging and force carbing has "quicker" results.

 

[phildo79]

From my experience when people hear you homebrew they normally want to try some, most of my family and friends are lager drinkers if you handed them a neipa or a hoppy pale ale they would'nt have a clue and more than likely tell you it tastes like hop house 13. Which would be the end of the night

I can't effing stand hop house 13. It's like drinking water. I think Guinness have such a good marketing team that they could make people buy anything they produce...except breo. Remember that!!!

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Well, I finally started a lager last night. I changed my mind about the recipe several times (even while crushing the grain!) but in the end the final recipe became:

90% Pilsner
10% Vienna
Mash temp 63C (145F)
35g Saaz AA=3.2 60 mins
35g Saaz AA=3.2 10 mins
10g MJ M84 yeast
17 litres in FV, OG= 1050

I think I should get about 23 IBU from this. It’s now sitting in my fermenting cupboard at 11C (52F).

 

[An Ankoù]

Well, I finally started a lager last night. I changed my mind about the recipe several times (even while crushing the grain!) but in the end the final recipe became:

90% Pilsner
10% Vienna
Mash temp 63C (145F)
35g Saaz AA=3.2 60 mins
35g Saaz AA=3.2 10 mins
10g MJ M84 yeast
17 litres in FV, OG= 1050

I think I should get about 23 IBU from this. It’s now sitting in my fermenting cupboard at 11C (52F).

Looks spot on for a Czech Pilsner (a little light on the IBUs). It's worth keeping some for at least six months in the bottle. These "Bohemian" Pilsner yeasts improve the beer on long storage, but have a tendency to fob when you open the bottle, Make sure your bottles are scrupulously clean, don't dry hop - so that no hop debris gets in there either. I think that even though the FG will be pretty low, the yeast keeps nibbling away slowly at what's left. No need to suspect an infection, I've had the same result year after year after year, but not with any other yeast.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Looks spot on for a Czech Pilsner (a little light on the IBUs). It's worth keeping some for at least six months in the bottle. These "Bohemian" Pilsner yeasts improve the beer on long storage, but have a tendency to fob when you open the bottle, Make sure your bottles are scrupulously clean, don't dry hop - so that no hop debris gets in there either. I think that even though the FG will be pretty low, the yeast keeps nibbling away slowly at what's left. No need to suspect an infection, I've had the same result year after year after year, but not with any other yeast.

Thanks for that (and your like!). I did think the IBUs were at the low end of the range but being my first lager I was maybe a bit cautious. Would you have used more Saaz in the bittering addition to get the higher IBUs or added another later addition?

 

[An Ankoù]

Thanks for that (and your like!). I did think the IBUs were at the low end of the range but being my first lager I was maybe a bit cautious. Would you have used more Saaz in the bittering addition to get the higher IBUs or added another later addition?

It's going to be a fine Pilsner. German Pilsners tend to be much more lightly hopped than the Czech ones. I think the traditional mash technique of the Czechs leaves more body and some caramelisation which is perceived as sweetness, and that will carry a greater quanity of hops. Yes, I would have put any additional hops in at the bittering stage. My comment was meant to convey the idea that eg Pilsner Urquell runs to around 40 IBUs, it wasn't a criticism of your recipe, which looks spot on unless you're actively trying to copy Urquell, which I don't think you are.

 

[terrym]

but have a tendency to fob when you open the bottle,

Just a passing comment on the English language!
'Fob' is a word I haven't seen or heard in a long time.
My old Dad who worked in a brewery used to use it, and I occasionally do to describe foam but it's not in the English Dictionaries.
I know there is a watch fob, and sometime you fob someone off (or try) , and there's the acronym for free on board, but fob for foam seems to have been lost.
Any commercial brewers out there to confirm its still used.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

unless you’re actively trying to copy Urquell, which I don't think you are.

As my first lager I’d consider anything drinkable as a good outcome, and anything enjoyable as a real result!

My next challenge will be figuring out if it’s any good - that might be where you guys come in (COVID-19 permitting).

 

[An Ankoù]

Just a passing comment on the English language!
'Fob' is a word I haven't seen or heard in a long time.
My old Dad who worked in a brewery used to use it, and I occasionally do to describe foam but it's not in the English Dictionaries.
I know there is a watch fob, and sometime you fob someone off (or try) , and there's the acronym for free on board, but fob for foam seems to have been lost.
Any commercial brewers out there to confirm its still used.

I couldn't find it in any of the main dictionaries either, but I did find this in the Oxford Companion to Beer:
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/2J4bQ0F6Dc/