Setting up shop

[hypnoticmonkey]

Hey all,

Firstly can I apologise if this is in the wrong forum, please do move it if it's not the right place.

I know you can produce 7,000 litres of cider a year before you have to pay duty on that which you sell, which has been in the back of mind for a while.

I know a fair bit about that process, registering for duty exception etc., so that's all good.

What I don't know about, is where I stand with other parts of the government in terms of producing and selling a drink for commercial purposes. Do I need to register for some kind of hygiene certification? Do I stand on the same footing as say people who produce jams in their kitchen for sale in local shops?

I'd be looking to sell my small volume produce in local farm shops or places like that if that is significant.

Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

Luke

 

[Aleman]

The Microbrewers Handbook Ted Brunning, covers the requirements of setting up shop . . .OK for a brewery but same applies re H&S Environmental Health etc

Actually Hygiene requirements for the pressing side for cider are much less than you might think (for 'traditional' ciders)

 

[WelshPaul]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Microbrewers-Ha ... 512&sr=8-1

 

[ccn1]

Hi Luke

I'm interested to hear what you find out as I am looking at a similar thing. I bought The Microbrewers Handbook and am waiting for it to arrive....

Cheers
Chris

 

[puravida]

I'm going through this for something unrelated to brewing at the moment
Actually, when you get into the detail it's all pretty simple and providing you half a half friendly district council you're laughing

I've got them coming out to my house on weds to go through a few tags and fill out the necessary forms. She was super friendly on the phone and said she'd push our registration through that afternoon (instead of the quoted 28 days) so we can cook at a christmas market that weekend.

I did an online food hygiene certificate that took less than 2hrs and cost £15. Easy peasy.

 

[unclepumble]

I thinkl the problem with the 7000ltrs is that you can only produce up to that amount if you, own the apples you are pressing in the first place, i.e. I think it only applies to people with their own orchard.

I could be wrong though.

UP

 

[graysalchemy]

I think you are right UP, was it not set up to help the rural economies post foot and mouth and to encourage the protection of historic orchards.

 

[shocker]

I dont know how relevant the comparison is , but setting up a tattoo shop in cornwall last year for a friend , the environmental health side of things really consisted of looking at the national guidelines for best practice , making an application to the council by email and waiting for the buck to get passed around a bit , then getting sent a form ,making a paid official application with the form then having a premises visit . Certainly in that field we knew a lot more about the pertinent facts and procedures than the inspecting officers . That really seemed to swing it on that occasion , so I would advise really hammering the research on all angles and having the answers ready to any questions they may hit you with . Having done a lot of research ourselves we found that councils requirements varied wildly so it was best to get to know things from all angles .Some focused on waste disposal , others on workers handwashing , each seemed to have a particular bee in their bonnet .

Thats the closest I have been recently , we stopped doing farm meats and butchery ,sausages and so on some years ago so things will have changed . I hope you can find something useful in that lot on dealing with local environmental health . Good luck ! :thumb:

 

[Scorrie]

Have a word with this lot - they may be a able to point you in the right direction:

http://siba.co.uk

 

[hypnoticmonkey]

I thinkl the problem with the 7000ltrs is that you can only produce up to that amount if you, own the apples you are pressing in the first place, i.e. I think it only applies to people with their own orchard.

I could be wrong though.

UP

I looked into it in quite detail and wrote to HMRC for clarification of the rules last summer so I'm quite sure that's not the case.

 

[unclepumble]

I thinkl the problem with the 7000ltrs is that you can only produce up to that amount if you, own the apples you are pressing in the first place, i.e. I think it only applies to people with their own orchard.

I could be wrong though.

UP

I looked into it in quite detail and wrote to HMRC for clarification of the rules last summer so I'm quite sure that's not the case.

Yep i looked and it seems I was wrong, It looks like a minefield of stuff you do need to know though, just had a look at the HMRC site dedicated to Cider Production Here It tells you all you need to know, It appears that the ruling on production up to 7,000 ltrs without registering only applies to Flat (non sparkling) Cider (i only speed read the stuff on their though so shoot me if I am wrong again).

UP

 

[shocker]

I just read a chunk of that , and GOD DAMN !!! Is that complex ?! And I thought that livestock movement was unnecessarily complicated.....jobs for the boys comes to mind . :shock:

 

[hypnoticmonkey]

I thinkl the problem with the 7000ltrs is that you can only produce up to that amount if you, own the apples you are pressing in the first place, i.e. I think it only applies to people with their own orchard.

I could be wrong though.

UP

I looked into it in quite detail and wrote to HMRC for clarification of the rules last summer so I'm quite sure that's not the case.

Yep i looked and it seems I was wrong, It looks like a minefield of stuff you do need to know though, just had a look at the HMRC site dedicated to Cider Production Here It tells you all you need to know, It appears that the ruling on production up to 7,000 ltrs without registering only applies to Flat (non sparkling) Cider (i only speed read the stuff on their though so shoot me if I am wrong again).

UP

I hadn't read it since last summer, but that rings a bell! (Although I'd forgotten that!)

 

[hypnoticmonkey]

I just read a chunk of that , and GOD DAMN !!! Is that complex ?! And I thought that livestock movement was unnecessarily complicated.....jobs for the boys comes to mind . :shock:

I'm a law graduate, so its not too bad to me! I'd also be inclined to say its not 'unnecessarily complicated', but I'm not sure if that's just cos i'm used to it...

 

[shocker]

I think its because you are used to it mate !

 

[hypnoticmonkey]

I think its because you are used to it mate !

Put it this way, when I started at university studying law we were sat in a small class asked to draft a law banning the possession of knives in public.

Sounds simple enough?

But no matter what any of us wrote, the tutor always found some way to get a way out of the law. We were all very inexperienced, but we were writing in what we thought was plain, clear unambiguous language.

It turned out that the way we speak, and write, is often far too open for query and questioning. I came to learn very quickly that if you want to make sure that nobody can possibly find a loophole or worm their way out of a law because of a technicality you have to write in the very verbose, complex, technical language that you see when you look up a law. Every word is there to add precision to the meaning and to make sure that there are no loopholes - its why you have to study it for years you can be qualified to practice it.

On the other hand, it does mean that it makes it very difficult for joe public to understand...

 

[graysalchemy]

What ever happened to the Plain English Charter :lol: :lol:

 

[shocker]

I think its because you are used to it mate !

On the other hand, it does mean that it makes it very difficult for joe public to understand...

My point exactly . 95% of the Uks businesses are "small businesses" ,ie , those that employ less than 10 , most being companies of less than 5 . The kind of people who are likely to be involved in small scale cider farming are not on the whole people who I would expect to have a law degree handy .

I have been a farmer and small holder , on and off in the background , all my life , as have my family for many generations . Some of us have degrees , some of us dont . One was a professor (or whatever its called) at oxford , many years back but still farmed . We have always made cider and fruit wines . I think we are a fair example . We could work our way through all that , we do similar stuff for livestock and chemicals , but it is not encouraging . I DO understand the need for loophole closing but surely some kind of middle ground could be found .

As GA says , the Plain English charter was supposed to provide a precis , at least an outline , that one didnt have to struggle through or hand to your solicitor . This country is its own worst enemy when it comes to the "little man" and small businesses , and producers of food and drink get the worst of it .

 

[Stone Cold]

so whats the low down? can a farm with its OWN orchard turn their apple into cider with the backing of food saftey cirtificut? and what els? is it the same that applys for microbrewery? a micro brewery must apply for HM brewing lisence and submit papers to what beer they are making/selling does say a farmer not have to go through those legalitys?

 

[shocker]

Read and enjoy....

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPort ... 7#P65_5532

...nice and clear , isnt it ? :whistle: