Second brew from sparged grains

[Gerryjo]

Looking for some info on another experiment.
As some of you may know I purchased 25kg of Minch Pale Ale Malt and have had my ups and downs which is to be expected.I generally look at different recipes out there and wonder how they have come about and of course the answer is trial and error and this has provided most of the worlds best alcholic beverages regardless.
My point is related to my own Brew#7 leading to Brew#8 and now you are wondering where this is going?
I would normally brew 20 ltr brews whether partial or AG but Tuesday's brew took a turn when I was putting a batch together with the following:
2.5kg Hook Head Irish Pale Malt 4-6 EBC
0.5kg CHATEAU CARA RUBY 50 EBC
0.5kg Best Cara Amber Malt 70 EBC
0.5kg Lyle's Golden Syrup
25g Northern Brewer Hop Pellets 6.7%AA @ mash
12g Northern Brewer Hop Pellets 6.7%AA @60
25g Aramis Leaf 7.9%AA @15 mins
25g Aramis Leaf 7.9%AA @5 mins

Grains mashed @65dgr celcius with strike temp @70dgr with 10 litres of water.
I had preheated 8 litres and sparged with 3 litres.Now with still having 5 litres in adjacent pot I decided to place the spent grains in the pot which I had kept to 70 dgr for about an hour.I then decided to sparge these with 1.2 litres of boiled water from the Kettle which my daughter had kindly done whilst Daddy cabs was on the go.I then added a further 1.7 litres of boiled water to that pot with 1kg of Lyle's Golden Syrup to this the second batch and decided to keep on going.
Now I have 2 brews on the boil with the second hopped with 12 g of Northern Brewer Hop Pellets 6.7%AA and then 30g @10 mins and 30g @0mins of either Fresh leaf hops; Magnum , Chinook & Cent of which I have no idea as they are the 10 and 0 min addition of an APA extract kit from Geterbrewed which had stated on the packaging 10 + 0 mins with 2no teabags.

Brew#7 has been pitched with Safale US-05 @20 dgr 15 litres
Brew@8 has been pitched with Safale US-04 @16 dgr 9 litres

Now my question is has anyone any idea how this mish mash concoction should turn out?:lol
:twisted:

 

[strange-steve]

I'm not sure I followed exactly what you did but it sounds similar to a technique known as parti-gyle brewing. This is where the first runnings would be used to make a high gravity beer, then more water would be added to the grains for a second mash which would be used to make a lower gravity beer.

 

[Gerryjo]

That's exactly what I've done and to compensate for the lower gravity I added 1kg of golden syrup.Funny needs to transfer both brews to secondary fvs this weekend.👍

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[LarryF]

I remember reading that they did this in medieval times where the first runnings were your celebration/wedding beer and as you mashed the same grain again and again you'd get weaker and weaker or smaller beers. This is how they could drink beer throughout the day as it was 1-2% but as it had been boiled it was safer than drinking water. I'm presuming that they may have reused the hops but that's just a guess, and this is all from memory.

 

[Rogermort]

Hence the term 'small beer'?


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[Gerryjo]

LarryF I read that myself a while back but I added the syrup for adjunct.Transferred to secondary today.OG was 1.042 and took a reading today @ 1.008 with a lovely hop aroma with a light biscuit note.Looking forward to bottling and tasting.👍

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[cheapbrew]

I've done this a few times recently and as mentioned its called party gyle, I usually hop the second brew differently, I've found my second brews sometimes came out better than the first runnings, the first one I did I actually reused the spent hops from the first brew too but that tasted like overstewed hops, i usually need to add something to up the SG as you've found but its a a good way to get more beer.:thumb:

 

[strange-steve]

It's a good technique if you're making a huge beer like a barleywine or RIS cos there's often a lot of sugars left behind in the grains.

 

[Simonh82]

It wasn't just done in medieval times. It was common brewing practice until fairly recent times and Fuller's still do it as standard.

 

[DoctorMick]

How much extra time would this add to a brew day?

 

[Gerryjo]

Depends on how your brewing.Today was my first time brewing with a mate who does kits normally.We looked at a Stone IPA recipe and found both a clone a partial.I made a headstart last night and got the wort sorted.
Today was good although started at 8.30 and partial on the boil.
The AG was a Pita as the grain bill was about 6 kg.Ended up under for the OG due to mashing between three pots.
Have rerun the mash on the grains and shall get 10 litres with a difference as I'm going with nutmeg and orange peel in the boil and maybe some dried fruit in the secondary.
All said it's a long day but if your setup properly it shouldn't add anymore than 2 hours but I'm getting ready for Christmas.....👍🍺

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[MarkBowie]

Something I would be interested in doing, what's your process? Do you just mash the grain for a second time?

 

[cheapbrew]

I just used two kettles of boiling water poured over the spent mash (it was an 8L original brew) and then steeped the mash for 30 mins stirring a few times during the 30 mins, then a quick boil with the hops added.

 

[Gerryjo]

I would normally mash the grains in a 15ltr pot of 11 ltrs with a strike temp of 68 degrees usually dropping to between 65 and 62 and sit for an hour.
I have another 11.5 ltr pot which I would I would have 10 Ltrs of water at 68 degrees and sparge the grains until I get around 13 Ltrs then place the grains in the second pot and mash for another hour while I'm getting the first pot on the boil.
At this point you have a choice of 2 brews or 1 and as I like to experiment I normally do 2 with the aid of adjuncts if you want a strong 20 ltr batch or keep 10.I do both and use the second for messing with.
About to pitch yeast to a 10 ltr sparged from second runnings yesterday with an overnight cool in the garage as it was 12 before I had finished and there is nutmeg,cardamon and orange peel with First gold hops for bittering and aroma.Dried fruits to be added to secondary if fermentation goes well.Taste is somewhat unique but this shall change after fermenting and additions.👌

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[Gerryjo]

How much extra time would this add to a brew day?

Hi and i'm sorry it has taken so long to get back but it is only an hour,as it's only the dunk sparge time.I'll give you a bit of advice though and that is don't just think of some:nono: crazy idea as I have tasted my second runnings and it needs to settle as the initial tasting was rough but that's due to the boil additions.

 

[Manxnorton]

Been reading your thread with interest, and the guys comments.
I can say is I take my hat off to you for being experimental.
Due to illness my old brain has loss a lot of brain cells to even string a sentence together let alone do rational thinking lol
I feel the home brewing I learn from others and experiment myself (but with guidance ) the top theropy in the world.
Great read up!

 

[Gerryjo]

Been reading your thread with interest, and the guys comments.
I can say is I take my hat off to you for being experimental.
Due to illness my old brain has loss a lot of brain cells to even string a sentence together let alone do rational thinking lol
I feel the home brewing I learn from others and experiment myself (but with guidance ) the top theropy in the world.
Great read up!

Hi Manxnorton and thanks for the comments.As I have said earler in another post that I coudny help myself and had a bottle of the partial at 7.5% and the AG 8% and although only lightly carbed as they hadnt been in for a full week they were great tasting beers that knock the socks off you and I kid you not.
Now the second runnings with the raisins and other additions wont be tried until christmas and I'm not to sure about it.But hey you will never know until you try and as I have said before you cant loose cause if it dont turn out right the first time you try again and learn from your mistakes and that to me as I'm a very practicle hands on person is invaluable.We can all read books on tried and tested theories which is great but how did they come to be written in the first place.I'm not looking to rewrite the history of making beer but I want to find out when I make mistakes or do something outside the box what effects this creates as I'm in the driving seat allowing me to take control.
As I have said before that I have looked at other recipes and I even purchased brewers friend last week but by doing so it opens your horizons and lets you see what others are doing.
My first real experiment was with Rowanberry and I still have a few bottles left,and this has been tested and drank and the effects are like Marmite,you'll either like,love or hate it depending on your pallet.
I currently have a chestnut brew ready for secondary fermenter and again it's because I want to know.
As regards set up mine is pots and a gas stove at present but shall likely move further on at some stage although I have an 8 gallon pot for christmas.
At the end of the day this is my hobby and makes me very happy and as I can see from yourself coming from what you have been through it does the same for you.So sit back and relax and do what you want to do and at the end of the day if turns out right bonus and you learned something and if it turns out not so right then bonus again as you learned another valuable lesson but with the added advantage that you know what not to do the next time around.
Sorry if it's a bit long winded but this forum is addictive.:thumb:

 

[Gerryjo]

Out of curiosity Manx are you an old classic bike fan as your title suggests to me that you're fond of classic TT.....

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[Gerryjo]

Brucy Bonus - second runnings ruination boil additions 25g First gold,spiced with Nutmeg,orange peel,Cardamon with 200g mixed fruit pre soaked in whiskey in secondary fermenter

Just a little update on this Brew.I Opened a bottle last night and the change in one week was unbelievable with only a one finger head maintaining a lacing the depth of the glass.The mouth feel was smooth well carbonated.Cardamon presence not as intense but actually being able to taste orange with cinnamon and the slightest fruitiness from the mixed fruit.This has to have been the best beer I've made so far but my only problem is that I shall have to try and replicate it.Shall be doing a lot more second running brews in the future.👍🍺

 

[Slid]

How much extra time would this add to a brew day?

Oddly enough, I have been thinking about this (Parti-gyle) for a couple of days now and came to the conclusion that it needs more kit to do it simply than I currenly have, with a Grainfather, a BIAB set up from the HBC and a 16L pot.

The ideal would be a Grainbrother as you just transfer the grain basket as is into the G-B with the second mash water already at mash temperatures and away!

As the G-B is marketed as "two brews in 7 hours" I guess it would add 2 hours to the brewday.

As to the merits or otherwise of Parti-gyle, it would maybe be only a special high gravity grain bill that was worth re-using, for the sake of £3-6 worth of grain? "Special" brews I am considering doing at the moment include a Robinsons Old Tom clone, a Guinness Foreign Extra Stout clone or even another Old Ale.

Still, I find the idea interesting. A possible variant is to add a kit to the second brew if the OG is a bit low.