Sake Beer Collision suggestions or advice.

[CraftySamurai]

I want to make a beer using elements of sake making as well as it actually being a beer. We all know rice lager especially the likes of Asahi but something that's more that just a lager, something with umami flavour a subtle sourness perhaps or just a deeper yet understated flavour is what I'm looking to brew.

I was thinking unfiltered lager or a hazy ipa might work. Hitachino Nest's Red Rice Ale is heading toward the right direction for me but I'm thinking there something more that can be done.

I'm keen to do some kind of primitive sake or amazake using koji then somehow ferment it with a lightly hopped ipa base maybe... Perhaps a wheat beer might lend itself better to this combo I don't know, I'm just batting round ideas hoping someone else is interested in melding these two great alcoholic beverages.

My partner lives in Japan and we are soon to be married, I want to brew something that if successful I will brew again for the purpose of our wedding ceremony whenever the coronavirus pandemic allows for our families to get together and celebrate.

I'm not even sure where to start, the rice lagers in some of the brew books seem as if they are just there to replicate easy drinking Asahi or maybe a Kirin Ichiban Shibori but I could buy that any day of the week in Japan or the UK.

I'm looking to brew something with a bit more craft. With the exception of a "brut" collaboration between Osaka based Minoh Beer and a sake distillery that was even close to what I want to make. However that was a limited release and my Japanese isn't good enough to quiz the staff at Minoh Beer about it, even if they would give up their secrets.

Has anyone tried this? Adding homebrew sake to a ferment or brewing with rice using any methods related to sake brewing?

 

[Mrhandsome]

Sounds interesting. Have you made sake before? I've been tempted to try for a while but it looks very long winded.

 

[Pavros]

There are a few commercial beers that use yuzu as a flavouring in ipas and neipas and, I think I've seen one using koji but not sake.
For a sake beer, couldn't you use a similar technique to that of a whisky infused beer? Either adding by way of a small amount prior to bottling/kegging or racking to secondary over sake-infused wood chunks and leaving for a while? Just throwing thoughts out there, as I have no real idea

 

[CraftySamurai]

There are a few commercial beers that use yuzu as a flavouring in ipas and neipas and, I think I've seen one using koji but not sake.
For a sake beer, couldn't you use a similar technique to that of a whisky infused beer? Either adding by way of a small amount prior to bottling/kegging or racking to secondary over sake-infused wood chunks and leaving for a while? Just throwing thoughts out there, as I have no real idea

Ive just ordered "Wyeast ™ 4134 Sake Yeast" for the Sake element, I have Koji and some Japanese rice ready too. Weyermann® Bohemmian Pilsner Malt as a base, and some pale malt if it needs more. In a nod to the Brut IPA (at least I think it was that) that I had last spring I am using White Labs WLP 007 Dry English Ale Yeast to ferment the beer. Im planing on using the rice in the boil but adding the amazake/sake for a secondary fermentation or in with the primary ferment. im a bit worried the two yeasts will not play nice but we will see. if anyone has any sugguestions. hops would be sorachi ace, citra, and whatever else i have laying around in the freezer maybe.

 

[CraftySamurai]

Sounds interesting. Have you made sake before? I've been tempted to try for a while but it looks very long winded.

not made it yet but keen to try. it can be long winded but ive seen some easy recipies. will update this thread as I go about trying to ferment the sake then the beer element too.

 

[Mrhandsome]

not made it yet but keen to try. it can be long winded but ive seen some easy recipies. will update this thread as I go about trying to ferment the sake then the beer element too.

Yeah very long winded but not all that difficult if you've got the time I'd imagine. I like the idea of the fermentation whilst simultaneously breaking down the starches into sugars all in one vessel.

Perhaps you could do a split batch with this experiment. One pure sake, one sake mixed with beer after fermentation, and one where you add unfermented wort as a final addition to the sake process.

 

[CraftySamurai]

Yeah very long winded but not all that difficult if you've got the time I'd imagine. I like the idea of the fermentation whilst simultaneously breaking down the starches into sugars all in one vessel.

Perhaps you could do a split batch with this experiment. One pure sake, one sake mixed with beer after fermentation, and one where you add unfermented wort as a final addition to the sake process.

I will see if I can do one with "matured" sake added at bottling, and one fermented in the same vessel as the beer I reckon thats something I could do with my time and budget. In the meantime I will have a word with the brewer in Japan (link is to their recent post on instagram announcing they are brewing the beer I was referring to again sadly its all in Japanese and doesnt mention the hops or malt just they they are working with a local sake brewer) I will ask them if they could disclose the hops or malts they use. I will be open with them and let them know im homebrewing here in the UK. Also going to ask my wife to order me some when it comes out in April as I dont see my visa application getting me there as fast as April. I love the beer so much that last time I bought out the local off licenses stock of it before it even went on sale.

 

[CraftySamurai]

UPDATE ON THE BREWING OF THIS BEER:

I wrote up a proposed recipe using a combination of two recipes from Greg Hughes book Home Brew Beer. Basically taking the Brut IPA and Rice Lager recipes listing there and adjusting them to how I remembered the beer tasting. I have listed the recipe below.

25L BATCH​

ESTIMATED ABV: UNKNOWN​

​

MALTS​

3kg Weyermann Bohemmian Pilsner Malt​

500g Carapils Malt​

500g + Koji Rice/Amazake​

Maybe some left over Maris otter pale malt?​

​

HOPS​

Sorachi Ace 10g (start of boil)​

Northern Brewer 10g (Boil)​

Citra 25g (Boil)​

Challenger 25g (Boil)​

Citra 50g (Dry Hop)​

Northern Brewer 25g (Dry Hop)​

Sorachi Ace 50g (Dry Hop)​

​

YEAST​

While Labs WLP 007 Dry English Ale Yeast​

​

ADDITIONS​

Amylase Enzyme at 1.020​

​

So thats basically what I had on hand or had ordered (homebrew shop ships in full kg or 500g so went with those measurements although doesnt mean I will used exactly that amount. Also hops are just what I had in the freezer odds and sods as well as the fresh citra and sorachi ace I ordered again in larger quantity than I really needed but I wrote in the recipe hop amounts I thought might work without being too in your face.

A few things to note; I read in an extract published in the book "Koji Alchemy by Rich Shih and Jeremy Umansky" that the Koji brings out fruity esters and works well with hops known for their tropical or fruity character, and works particularly well with Belgian strains of yeast. (For those interested in the book I would say its more geared to the application of koji to food rather than alcohol but ive found it interesting and challenging. Theres a great deal of detail in it about culturing the koji and yet it is bare bones when it talks about sake making in fact its near enough missing from the book, focusing on other rice based fermented alcohols instead. the book was sold alongside the white rice koji bought from Umami Chef on their website.

Theres More!
As I mentioned in a previous post on this thread I had contacted Minoh Beer in Osaka about the brewing of this "homage" beer and asked about the ingredients I was planning to use and what they used, but I never thought I would get a reply. That was many weeks ago and I heard nothing until today when they got back to me and wrote this

​

"we brew with pilsner malt and caramel malt (10%), Flake Malt (5%), and kouji (8%) and we use saison yeast. Good Luck"​

They also wrote that they looked forward to hearing how it went and were just super nice. Yesterday I did my best to polish the rice by hand (im using a Japanese strain of rice grown in Italy and sold in the UK, as I already had this on hand.) I let the rice sit in cold water after washing it several times until the water was clear. I left it for 24 hours. Tonight I will steam it and then allow to cool before sprinkling the Koji mold onto the rice and keeping a close eye on the temperature.

Closing thoughts for this post today...

When they referred to flaked malts in their message about what malts they used could they be referring to flaked oats?

Are there too many hops in my proposed recipe?


WIll update once I have the Koji starter and have completed brew day for the beer side of this.

 

[CraftySamurai]

Any other update on this beer. I used a DIY brew kettle rig that I assembled with some work mates. First brew day with it made me aware of a few issues. Firstly I have a threaded 3000w element that's perminent to the vessel due to grounding the electrical parts etc so to make cleaning easier I thought I would throw my grain in some muslin bags and have them in those to make it easier. What I did not foresee was the muslin bags may come into contact with the element during the boil and melt/burn (yep that happened). So the boil finished and I got the beer into a bucket with an airlock, cooling took way too long even with the vessel outside on a pretty cold day. I finally got the beer to 21°c and pitched the yeast as per packet instructions. A day later we had a little bubbling but then next to nothing. I had my koji started in the works but had to use a packet koji rice and hydrate that and add to rice. I haven't done this before so not sure how far along it should be before added to the beer but I waited until it looked to be growing then threw it in with the hops I would be dry hopping with. Sure enough bubbled away like a good 'un for a day or so after then again nothing recently. I decided to check the hydrometer reading using the tap (big mistake as I got a ton of rice gloop in my trail jar) anyway... Sent the reading to my mate who's good at that stuff and he reckons it reached 2.7% alcohol. It's been probably 2 weeks since the end of brew day so I was expecting more. I think the muslin bag method stopped getting as much from the grain as perhaps I could have done which I regret. I added Amylase enzyme today alongside some yeast nutrient in the hopes it may produce a bit more.

Haven't tasted it yet but the smell is a heady Sorachi Ace and Citra hop aroma. Hoping the burning incident won't affect taste. Any advice if the abv doesn't change? Throw in some more fermenting rice and a sachet of us-05 maybe or should I just swallow the pill and bottle it and see how it tastes after a little aging?

I also have some sake fermenting so will be experimenting with adding that to the beer as a small side batch to see the difference in flavour.

Any thoughts are much appreciated. So far this brew has caused me a lot of stress and worry not least as my favorite brewery are keen to know how it turns out