Saison recipe

[The Baron]

First Gold for me Rod if you are using English hops

 

[Rodcx500z]

First Gold for me Rod if you are using English hops

Only English hops i have are target, ekg, and challenger, i also have styrian golding, and saaz

 

[The Baron]

EKG and Styrian are a good mix then Rod. I tend to use them pretty regular together in my English bitters/ales
Target and Challenger are also good in Bitters/ales but may be a little too strong in flavour for a Saison IMO.
I am sure it will be good the reason I said First Gold is the slight orangey taste

 

[Rodcx500z]

I will order some first gold, i need to stock up on hops, i am getting a little more adventurous in my brewing now i have kegs but will never stop brewing bitter and pale ales

 

[The Baron]

First Gold are like EKG but a with a slight orangey taste to me and good with EKG and Styrian in your Bitters so a double whammy if you order some

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I will order some first gold, i need to stock up on hops, i am getting a little more adventurous in my brewing now i have kegs but will never stop brewing bitter and pale ales

I can see it now - banks of fermzillas fitted with spunding valves, doing closed transfers, brewing NEIPA’s,…

 

[Pennine]

They're the same yeast, MJ just white label Belle as M29. That's direct from someone who should know.

Huh, that's interesting I could have sworn m29 had a more black pepper than Belle. Then again I have never brewed them side by side. Well this is good to know. Are most of MJ's offerings just Lallemand repackaged?

 

[samale]

This is my lemon and rosemary rye Saison. It's taking weeks to mellow out, I probably used to much rosemary.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Are most of MJ's offerings just Lallemand repackaged?

They're all repackaged from somewhere, in that they don't manufacture any dry yeast themselves, but they may mix 2 existing yeasts, or do something like M66 Hophead which has enzyme added. But yeah, a lot of them are just Lallemands.

 

[Hop_it]

Saison is one of those styles where there's an obvious benchmark in Saison Dupont in the same way as eg Urquell and Guinness, but it's also abused particularly by USian brewers who use the "oh it was made by little farmers doing their own thing" justification to do all sorts of weird things and still call it a saison. But get a few bottles of Dupont in to see where it's coming from.



Nope, you're right, high attenuation is one of the defining characteristics of saisons, and traditionally that means a STA1 gene, characteristic of diastaticus yeast. After all the scares of a few years ago, the big homebrew producers are pretty good at warning about STA1, and Lallemand are not the only ones doing non-STA1 yeasts for saisons - see also WLP561 Non-STA1son. And bunging some sugar/golden syrup in will help attenuation.

You don't need to get too complicated with the recipe - just say 1.054 of pilsner malt with maybe a bit of wheat and/or sugar. Something classic like Goldings or Styrians to bitter and a bit towards the end of the boil. It is one of those styles that is more about process and yeast - I've read that Dupont ramp the temperature through the mash over 75 minutes.

I'm sure this review of different saison yeasts must have been posted at some point in this thread, but it's worth posting again. He prefers 3724 to WLP565 (they seem to have both come from Dupont but are not the same), but suggests blending the two; 3726 Farmhouse (Blaugies) may not be quite as classic but is a crowd-pleaser. Likes the Yeast Bay blends in general.

He prefers Fermentis Be-134 of the dry strains for a classic saison. Uses 3711 (allegedly Thiriez) for "flavoured" saisons as it ferments more reliably but gives less yeast character. I guess you could say the same of M29/Belle Saison. He prefers WLP565 when it's left to free-rise to ambient rather than heating it to 29.4C. He avoids underpitching as some suggest. He's a proponent of the idea that back-pressure causes the "Dupont stall", but I know that some people thoroughly dismiss that idea. Also see MTF for yeast descriptions.

https://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/guide-saisons-and-saison-yeasts
And I like his Saison Manifesto :

A Saison Must Be:

• Dry – Thou shall not make a Saison that is not dry. These beers require an amazing level of attenuation. Any sweet characters should be perceptual - e.g. a sugar top note, an herbal sweetness.
• Earthy – A dry beer with nothing interesting is just a boring moisture suck. The best Saisons have a middle character of malt and earthy tones that set up the finish.
• Spicy – You need tones on the palette that grab and wake you up. A cinnamon thing, a pepper bite, herbal, hot. This spice breaks the earthy middle and leads right to the CO2 sting of the finish
• Lively – Nothing worse than a “dead” Saison. The beer needs to be alive in the glass with plenty of carbonation. A touch of sourness can boost the heart rate as well.
• Tangy? – Maybe, but it’s not actually a requirement. (nor is brett)
• Yeast Driven – More than any other style, Saison is defined by its yeast. Treated properly, the strains produce every one of the necessary characters for our beer. Damn the man and his ways.

An excellent summary of what Saison is all about, and the linked article is very interesting too

You rightly say that Dupont is an obvious (and a very nice) benchmark for the style, and is frequently used as such by our US cousins. But might that be, at least in part, due to it's ease of availability? There are others, which may not be as easy to source, particularly in the USA, that are worthy contenders. However, none of them are the same . . . . . I think therefore that there is quite a lot of potential for "creative license" in the style - although I agree that some folks can go a bit o.t.t. It is only my personal opinion, but I don't feel that added fruit, herbs and spices have a place in this type of beer. There are plenty of other beer styles where these ingredients work well. The yeast and the process (and a simple malt bill) are what make a good Saison (ref. the Saison Manifesto above).

 

[cushyno]

I went-a-hunting today on more info regarding Diastaticus and the STA-1 gene. This document from Lallemand is worth a look as it gives a side-by-side comparison of three of their yeasts and affect on fusels, esters and phenols at three different temperatures. Interesting for me is their "Farmhouse" yeast looks quite close in flavour profile to Belle Saison, more fruity, but without the STA-1 gene. That yeast may be worth a punt for those wanting a classic Saison flavour without risking inviting Diastaticus into their brewery.

 

[chthon]

Notes on yeast: "Farmhouse Ales" only mentions local strains, not diastatic ones. A diastatic one is nice to obtain the dry character quicker and with less effort. But apparently high attenuation was obtained more through long and low temperature mashing.

 

[Pennine]

I went-a-hunting today on more info regarding Diastaticus and the STA-1 gene. This document from Lallemand is worth a look as it gives a side-by-side comparison of three of their yeasts and affect on fusels, esters and phenols at three different temperatures. Interesting for me is their "Farmhouse" yeast looks quite close in flavour profile to Belle Saison, more fruity, but without the STA-1 gene. That yeast may be worth a punt for those wanting a classic Saison flavour without risking inviting Diastaticus into their brewery.

Am I reading that correctly that fusels decrease in Belle Saison as temperature increases?

 

[chthon]

This is my lemon and rosemary rye Saison. It's taking weeks to mellow out, I probably used to much rosemary.
View attachment 50294

Another note on brewing time. I see all too often "Oh, spring and summer is coming, time to brew a saison".

Saisons (and bière de garde) were brewed in the wintertime. More hops in the late boil, and a long conditioning until the beer was needed, that is when the farmhands started to need drinks, when it became warm.

 

[cushyno]

Am I reading that correctly that fusels decrease in Belle Saison as temperature increases?

That's how I read it. Interesting if that is the case, good reason to ferment higher. Belle Saison pretty consistent in other attributes across all temperatures other than fusels. If it's incorrect then it makes me doubt the whole series of charts.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Another note on brewing time. I see all too often "Oh, spring and summer is coming, time to brew a saison".

Saisons (and bière de garde) were brewed in the wintertime. More hops in the late boil, and a long conditioning until the beer was needed, that is when the farmhands started to need drinks, when it became warm.

I thought saisons were brewed thick and fast to keep the casual workers watered.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

An excellent summary of what Saison is all about, and the linked article is very interesting too

You rightly say that Dupont is an obvious (and a very nice) benchmark for the style, and is frequently used as such by our US cousins. But might that be, at least in part, due to it's ease of availability? There are others, which may not be as easy to source, particularly in the USA, that are worthy contenders.

Define "worthy" in this context? Remember the original brief from @An Ankoù "to get my hands on some saison to find out what it's supposed to taste like".

So the main thing is that it should be "typical", it should have that essence of "saison-ness". And given that An Ankoù is in France, then classic Belgian examples should be the easiest to get hold of, as well as hopefully being suitably authentic in a way that eg very few USian saisons are. And Dupont is one of those beers that's well enough distributed that it can be a reference point across the internet, wherever people are. If someone in the UK was wanting to check out how people can mess around with saisons beyond Dupont, I might point them to Wild Beer Co Ninkasi (NZ hops, 10% apple juice, 75cl available from Waitrose) or Burning Sky's Saison a la Provision (saison plus Brett/bugs, as a core beer from a popular brewery it should be fairly easy to find in bottle shops/online). But that's probably not going to help An Ankoù much.

Of course you've got to be a bit wary of "benchmarks" that aren't that typical of the wider style - Zum Uerige is far more bitter than most alts, and Fuller's ESB isn't particularly representative of strong bitters. But Dupont is fairly representative of the saison heartlands, which you might put at around 5.5% and 35 IBU. If you're being picky, you could argue it's got more hop flavour compared to most Belgian saisons, Dupont Bio has less and is a bit more representative in that sense. De la Senne's Meyboom is at the heart of the saison group in Kevin Verstrepen's lab analyses, although at 41 IBU it's a bit more bitter than 31 IBU Dupont.

 

[Hop_it]

Define "worthy" in this context? Remember the original brief from @An Ankoù "to get my hands on some saison to find out what it's supposed to taste like".

So the main thing is that it should be "typical", it should have that essence of "saison-ness". And given that An Ankoù is in France, then classic Belgian examples should be the easiest to get hold of, as well as hopefully being suitably authentic in a way that eg very few USian saisons are. And Dupont is one of those beers that's well enough distributed that it can be a reference point across the internet, wherever people are. If someone in the UK was wanting to check out how people can mess around with saisons beyond Dupont, I might point them to Wild Beer Co Ninkasi (NZ hops, 10% apple juice, 75cl available from Waitrose) or Burning Sky's Saison a la Provision (saison plus Brett/bugs, as a core beer from a popular brewery it should be fairly easy to find in bottle shops/online). But that's probably not going to help An Ankoù much.

Of course you've got to be a bit wary of "benchmarks" that aren't that typical of the wider style - Zum Uerige is far more bitter than most alts, and Fuller's ESB isn't particularly representative of strong bitters. But Dupont is fairly representative of the saison heartlands, which you might put at around 5.5% and 35 IBU. If you're being picky, you could argue it's got more hop flavour compared to most Belgian saisons, Dupont Bio has less and is a bit more representative in that sense. De la Senne's Meyboom is at the heart of the saison group in Kevin Verstrepen's lab analyses, although at 41 IBU it's a bit more bitter than 31 IBU Dupont.

All that is meant by "worthy" is that they be worthy of being called a Saison, and are (your words) "typical" of the style, and (as you said) many other classic Belgian examples should be easier to find in France than here in the UK.

As for "benchmarks", there is no doubt that a great many beers of different styles push the boundaries. But I don't think that is such a bad thing is it? I guess the important thing for a homebrewer is to try a few recognised good examples of the style, and then decide which characteristics appeal.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

All that is meant by "worthy" is that they be worthy of being called a Saison, and are (your words) "typical" of the style

I'd say that "worthiness" does not imply "typical" - and in general "worthiness" is just not a particularly helpful word to use when talking about beer styles. JMO.

To take an analogy, the Morgan 3 Wheeler is definitely a car, it is a "worthy" car, but it's not at all a typical car and you'll end up with a very odd idea of "carness" if you use that as your benchmark. Whereas a Toyota hatchnack may not be very "worthy" but is very "typical".

As for "benchmarks", there is no doubt that a great many beers of different styles push the boundaries. But I don't think that is such a bad thing is it?

It's not a bad thing if you're just looking for good beers, or interesting beers. But those kinds of beers are not very helpful if you're trying to work out the essence of "saisonnness An Ankoù in post #85 "I need to get my hands on some saison to find out what it's supposed to taste like".

I've come back to this thread to post this new article, it's interesting that folk based in Belgium are now trying to claim back the idea of what a saison is all about :

https://beerandbrewing.com/amp/saison-a-story-in-motion

• Remember the story. Your goal is quenching and rustic. Imagine a plane where the X axis is refreshment value and the Y axis is character, and you aim for that upper right corner. The trick, as usual, is balance.
• Skip the spices. I’ve never had a saison that was more drinkable because of spices, but I’ve had many that would’ve been more drinkable without them.
• Don’t skip the hops. Many examples I taste are all about fermentation—assertive spicy phenols and/or fruity esters. It can quickly become too much, especially without bitterness and hop character to balance it. I’ve heard some say that yeast is the star of the saison show. I disagree: For me, a great one manages yeast-hop balance.
• Keep the fermentation in check. With certain strains—especially the “Dupont” strain, i.e., Wyeast 3724/White Labs WLP565—it’s popular to ramp upward of 90°F (32°C) to push the yeast through an expected stall in fermentation. It may be harmless, but I don’t recommend it; the phenolics can get aggressive and unpleasant. Instead, shoot for each strain’s preferred temperature—allowing it to free-rise on its own, if it wants—and be patient.
• Let the yeast breathe—they’ll thank you for it. Consider open fermentation. Dupont uses wide, squarish fermentors with plenty of headspace. In Brussels, the same is true of Senne’s wide cylindricals. In St. Louis, Perennial recently brewed a beautiful, classically inspired saison called Hainaut using open fermentation (our blind panel scored it 95/100). At home, I simulate this using a wide-mouthed carboy or bucket, trading the lid and airlock for a sanitized sheet of foil wrapped over the top.
  

https://beerandbrewing.com/saison-and-funk-a-plea-for-moderation/I’m not talking about the multitude of flavored saisons—your blackberry, ginger, hibiscus, chocolate, tequila-barrel–aged beers. Those might be bad ideas, but I like to see new ideas—even if just to prove that I’m right about them being bad ones.

It is the overexpression of funk that has me wary of most saisons and farmhouse ales I try out there. It’s the big bump of Brettanomyces, the tangy creep of lactic acid; not to mention the vinegar burn of acetic acid. It’s the distractions from all things saison, and the promotion of all things wild.

And since Stange quotes Yvan De Baets liberally, it's worth mentioning Roel "Lost Beers" Mulders' view on the conventional view of saison espoused by De Baets :
https://lostbeers.com/tag/saison/

 

[cushyno]

If read the CB&B article recently, it sounds like a good enough formula for a Saison - keep it simple. However I just read the Roel Mulder article (thanks for the link). It is absolutely scathing of de Baets lack of historical accuracy!

So if this is true, and we only have one man's word against another's, what we consider of being a Saison style and to stem heavily from what Dupont are brewing and their convenient backstory. Very interesting indeed.

So historical saison could actually be a low ABV sweet beverage that is drunk young!