Saison recipe

[Pennine]

Here you go. Belle saison is a better choice than m29.

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/pennines-brewdays.86123/post-900120

 

[Slid]

I've never knowingly drunk a saison in my life, but that looks a lovely recipe.

I've been reluctant to try making a saison as I've got it in my head from somewhere that saison yeasts contain S. Diastaticus, which is something I really don't want hanging around my brewing area. When I look at the yeast descriptions, though, I don't see any mention of this. Have I got this wrong somewhere?

I think perhaps it is Belle Saison that brings my beers down to improbable attenuation levels, although there is no sense of a Saison type flavour.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I think perhaps it is Belle Saison that brings my beers down to improbable attenuation levels, although there is no sense of a Saison type flavour.

You may need to ferment warmer?

 

[Clint]

I've used both the Belle and M29 in mid to high 20's..both are good,typical SAISON taste but there is a difference. I think I may have even pitched the M29 at 28c and it was great.

 

[An Ankoù]

I've used both the Belle and M29 in mid to high 20's..both are good,typical SAISON taste but there is a difference. I think I may have even pitched the M29 at 28c and it was great.

Something for me to explore here when the temperature warms up a bit here in the arctic steppes of sunny Brittany. I've done the kveik thing and I wasn't that impressed. In the meantime, I need to get my hands on some saison to find out what it's supposed to taste like. If I keep a separate set of fermenters and do it in the garage, I should be able to avoid cross contamination.

Especially if I wear a mask!

 

[obscure]

I think perhaps it is Belle Saison that brings my beers down to improbable attenuation levels, although there is no sense of a Saison type flavour.

I’m drinking one just now that was fermented with Belle Saison at about 28°C and has that distinctive Saison taste, part of the reason I like them is that I find I can just let the yeast ride out whatever temperature it is.

That said I did a batch with Wyeast French Saison at about 20°C and it tastes like a Saison which does suggest that some of them can work well at lower temperatures.

 

[Clint]

I've used both and only followed my normal clean and sanitise regime with no noticeable problems.

 

[Oneflewover]

I've used a few saison yeasts and wyeast french saison 3711 is by far my favourite. It is definitely a diastaticus strain, but I've had no problems with it affecting subsequent fermentations. It ferments out very dry with 90%+ attenuation typical, but leaves a perception of body, it definitely doesn't leave the beer thin. This is why, in my opinion, Munich and Vienna etc just not needed. Just pilsner / pale and wheat is all that's needed in the grist with 5-10% sugar to really dry it out.

 

[Slid]

I've used both and only followed my normal clean and sanitise regime with no noticeable problems.

Maybe I don't get rid of all the yeast from the primary fermentors? Perhaps a small colony of saison / wine yeast will ferment down to their sort of FG's?

 

[Rodcx500z]

I am waiting for cml saison should be here tomorrow, anyone tried it

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

CML do two Saison yeasts. I used their Lille Saison recently but I have never made, or even tasted a Saison before so couldn’t really comment on how it might compare with other Saison yeasts. I sent a bottle to @cushyno so he may be able to offer an opinion?

 

[Hop_it]

CML do two Saison yeasts. I used their Lille Saison recently but I have never made, or even tasted a Saison before so couldn’t really comment on how it might compare with other Saison yeasts. I sent a bottle to @cushyno so he may be able to offer an opinion?

I'm not at all sure that there is a "specific" Saison taste. It is by definition a rustic style of beer, which is brewed with a wide range of different grains and adjuncts. Even the US "BJCP" guidelines (of which, by the way, I am not a particularly avid follower) suggest a wide spectrum of possible flavour characteristics. I have tried several commercial offerings, and they have all been good, but all different. So, I think that as long as you can produce something pale, not too bitter, well attenuated (dry to the taste) and worth drinking, you can count that as a success :small

 

[cushyno]

I need to get my hands on some saison to find out what it's supposed to taste like. If I keep a separate set of fermenters and do it in the garage,

You do need to at least give it a try. It's a different taste from other Belgian yeasts, more subtle and earthy I find, but slightly peppery too.

I've decided to keep one plastic FV specifically for Saison fermentation just in case.

I should be able to avoid cross contamination.

Especially if I wear a mask!

Of course!

 

[cushyno]

On temperature: I'm coming round to believing that pitching temperature can be almost as important as fermenting temperature. I don't fully understand the theory, but in practice I seem to get better beers when pitching yeast just below fermentation temperature, so I'd pitch at 22 degrees ferment at 23 for a few days and then steadily elevate from there. The temperature elevation is to keep the yeast from stalling rather than to create more esters. I believe esters are most affected by temperature in the first few days of fermentation (but not wholly determined by temperature alone), so it needs to be high but not too high. The pepperiness is phenolic and more determined by the way the yeast interacts with products from the mash.

On infection: I may have had a Diastaticus infection following use of Belle Saison in one of my batches, but I can almost certainly trace the problem to one FV that is really old and somewhat scratched inside. The problem is not persistent and only affected one batch, so I mustn't have cleaned the FV enough in that instance. Bottles that were used to hold Saison last year have cleaned up fine without infection and so has a stainless keg.

However, just in case, I'll be using a dedicated FV for all Saison brewing in future.

On body and colour: @Oneflewover reccomends going simple and light grains with wheat and sugar. I've done this before and the beer tasted good but almost too lager-like. I've also tried 35% each of pilsner and pale with the rest made up from Munich, Vienna, wheat and sugar. The latter was more flavoursome but with too much body. Both had some Cara malts in. I think there's a sweet spot to be had by adding some Munich but no Cara malts and a decent dose of sugar to keep it thinner bodied.

I'll keep tweaking my recipe and post it up when I'm happy with it.

 

[Dazzelknight]

Iv been reading this thread with interest as Iv got my 1st saison in the FV. I’v done the recipe in Gregg Hughes book using Belle saison. I see this is a diastaticus strain, Been new to brewing Iv been doing a little reading about this strain and possibility of contamination. So what’s the crack ?. Is it just a case of spending a little more time cleaning/sanitising the FV and everything else used after bottling ?.

 

[Clint]

I never realised it was a different strain...time will tell.
Just checked my journal...I've done a further 5 brews after using Belle...wheat,pales and lager..all behaved normally,no mad fermentation or low fg and all taste as they should.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I need to get my hands on some saison to find out what it's supposed to taste like.

Saison is one of those styles where there's an obvious benchmark in Saison Dupont in the same way as eg Urquell and Guinness, but it's also abused particularly by USian brewers who use the "oh it was made by little farmers doing their own thing" justification to do all sorts of weird things and still call it a saison. But get a few bottles of Dupont in to see where it's coming from.

I've been reluctant to try making a saison as I've got it in my head from somewhere that saison yeasts contain S. Diastaticus, which is something I really don't want hanging around my brewing area. When I look at the yeast descriptions, though, I don't see any mention of this. Have I got this wrong somewhere?

Nope, you're right, high attenuation is one of the defining characteristics of saisons, and traditionally that means a STA1 gene, characteristic of diastaticus yeast. After all the scares of a few years ago, the big homebrew producers are pretty good at warning about STA1, and Lallemand are not the only ones doing non-STA1 yeasts for saisons - see also WLP561 Non-STA1son. And bunging some sugar/golden syrup in will help attenuation.

You don't need to get too complicated with the recipe - just say 1.054 of pilsner malt with maybe a bit of wheat and/or sugar. Something classic like Goldings or Styrians to bitter and a bit towards the end of the boil. It is one of those styles that is more about process and yeast - I've read that Dupont ramp the temperature through the mash over 75 minutes.

I'm sure this review of different saison yeasts must have been posted at some point in this thread, but it's worth posting again. He prefers 3724 to WLP565 (they seem to have both come from Dupont but are not the same), but suggests blending the two; 3726 Farmhouse (Blaugies) may not be quite as classic but is a crowd-pleaser. Likes the Yeast Bay blends in general.

He prefers Fermentis Be-134 of the dry strains for a classic saison. Uses 3711 (allegedly Thiriez) for "flavoured" saisons as it ferments more reliably but gives less yeast character. I guess you could say the same of M29/Belle Saison. He prefers WLP565 when it's left to free-rise to ambient rather than heating it to 29.4C. He avoids underpitching as some suggest. He's a proponent of the idea that back-pressure causes the "Dupont stall", but I know that some people thoroughly dismiss that idea. Also see MTF for yeast descriptions.

https://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/guide-saisons-and-saison-yeasts
And I like his Saison Manifesto :

A Saison Must Be:

• Dry – Thou shall not make a Saison that is not dry. These beers require an amazing level of attenuation. Any sweet characters should be perceptual - e.g. a sugar top note, an herbal sweetness.
• Earthy – A dry beer with nothing interesting is just a boring moisture suck. The best Saisons have a middle character of malt and earthy tones that set up the finish.
• Spicy – You need tones on the palette that grab and wake you up. A cinnamon thing, a pepper bite, herbal, hot. This spice breaks the earthy middle and leads right to the CO2 sting of the finish
• Lively – Nothing worse than a “dead” Saison. The beer needs to be alive in the glass with plenty of carbonation. A touch of sourness can boost the heart rate as well.
• Tangy? – Maybe, but it’s not actually a requirement. (nor is brett)
• Yeast Driven – More than any other style, Saison is defined by its yeast. Treated properly, the strains produce every one of the necessary characters for our beer. Damn the man and his ways.

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

I never realised it was a different strain...time will tell.
Just checked my journal...I've done a further 5 brews after using Belle...wheat,pales and lager..all behaved normally,no mad fermentation or low fg and all taste as they should.

Yes, I’ve done 3 brews in the same FV since my Saison. A british pale ale, an APA and a London Bitter. They all behaved as they should and the first two taste as they should too. Not tried the London Bitter yet. The yeast I used for my Saison was CML Lille which doesn’t have a particularly high attenuation (77-84%) for a Saison yeast so it’s possible that is a non STA1

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Here you go. Belle saison is a better choice than m29.

They're the same yeast, MJ just white label Belle as M29. That's direct from someone who should know.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I am about to brew 2 siasons using cml lille, first one is tommorow using sorachi hops a little orange peel and coriander, the second one i will use English hops so any suggestions are most welcome