Saison Brew - Advice needed

[CrushOnCraft]

I'm brewing my first 5 Gallon Saison tomorrow. I'm using:
4.5kg Pale Ale Malt
0.5 Wheat Malt
0.5kg Munich
Crossmyloof Lille Saison.

Not sure about the hops: Southern Passion (50g) or Hallertau Blanc (50g)

Questions:
Lille Saison - what can I expect?
Adding spices - recommended? dosage rate?
Recommended hops?
Salts profile?
Anything else I need to know.

 

[chthon]

I have just run your fermentables through my recipe calculator, and it would be better to halve your pale ale malt, or else you will have a really strong saison.

Apparently the Lille Saison yeast seems to be the same as MJ M29 French Saison yeast, expect an attenuation rate of around 99%, instead of 90%.

Try to mash around 63°-65°C for a longer time, so that the beer dries out a bit.

Add a bit more sulfate then chloride, and 100 ppm calcium is nice in this.

I wouldn't add spices. I suppose that your hops will provide plenty of taste, but decrease the bittering ratio and add more hops at the end for aroma and flavor.

 

[MickDundee]

I have just run your fermentables through my recipe calculator, and it would be better to halve your pale ale malt, or else you will have a really strong saison.

Apparently the Lille Saison yeast seems to be the same as MJ M29 French Saison yeast, expect an attenuation rate of around 99%, instead of 90%.

Try to mash around 63°-65°C for a longer time, so that the beer dries out a bit.

Add a bit more sulfate then chloride, and 100 ppm calcium is nice in this.

I wouldn't add spices. I suppose that your hops will provide plenty of taste, but decrease the bittering ratio and add more hops at the end for aroma and flavor.

I thought there’d been complaints of the CML yeast not being a good attenuator compared to M29 or Belle Saison?

That was a while ago so they might have a different source now.

 

[strange-steve]

Never used that CML yeast but presumably it's similar to Wy3711, so a reliable, high attenuating yeast, very dry finish, citrusy and peppery rather than clove phenols.

Spices aren't needed at all in a saison, although I find a little touch of coriander seed is nice in a pale Belgian beer, about 5g at the end of the boil adds just a background hint.

Hallertau blanc pairs really nicely with the citrusy yeast flavours, I used it in my wine saison.

I keep minerals fairly low/moderate for a saison, calcium, sulphate, and chloride all around 80 - 100ppm, alkalinity around 20ppm or less.

Remember that there's no such thing as a saison that's too dry, so a replacing some pale malt with table sugar might be worth considering. Also people seem to think you need to ferment saison at saharan temperatures, but in my opinion starting in the low 20s and slowly ramping up is better.

 

[MickDundee]

Also people seem to think you need to ferment saison at saharan temperatures, but in my opinion starting in the low 20s and slowly ramping up is better.

I entered my first ever saison in the Welsh National HB contest 3 years ago. I fermented at 28C for the whole fermentation and part of my feedback was that the yeast tasted stressed. In the 2 I’ve done since then I’ve started at 22 and ranked up after 3/4 days.

 

[Clint]

Hmmm...I pitched the M29 yesterday at 28..in the mid range of the temps on the packet...

 

[Alex.mc]

I just did an Elderflower and Hibiscus Saison using the CML Lille yeast.
Definitely Citrussy and pepper, and low in phenols. I did ferment fairly low though, max temp was 22c I think. Pretty clean and some nice tartness. My wife likes it for sure!

 

[Thorbz]

I've used the CML Saison yeast twice, and ended up with a banana-bomb both times. It's nothing like Belle Saison or the Mangrove Jacks M29 in my experience, and it finished about 1.010, whereas the other dry saison yeasts I've used finished at 1.000 with the same recipe. The banana does fade over time, and the beer eventually tastes more recognisably 'saison'. My recipe was Pils,Vienna,Munich,Wheat and some dextrose for an OG around 1.064. I added some Orval dregs to half the batch, to dry it out a little, and that half was my preference, as the banana flavour was transformed into a nice fruitiness. I didn't add any spices, and went with a yellow/malty water profile in Bru'n'water.