RO Filters

[MackemBrew]

who uses one? Looking at getting one so I can have full control over my water.

Have seen a 3 stage filter from vyair for £35 but I have a feeling it will take hooooooours to get enough water! Just wondering what people do to gather clean water.

 

[dave_77]

I purchased this 100GDP 4 stage filter from eBay a couple of months ago for around £45.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251262082106I purchased a TDS meter at the same time and it seems to be working fine. I usually collect around 20 litres of RO and it's been taking around 2hours. I think our water pressure is fairly good so I didn't buy one with a pump.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Yes, I fitted a similar system a few weeks back... in fact, I went a step further and also got a de-ionisation (DI) stage which takes the water right down to a big fat 0.000 on my TDS meter. My motivation was that I live in whatI perceived to be a very hard water area (St Albans): our showers certainly coke up faster than Mother Shipton's cave.

Well I can say it's a very neat system and it works a treat. HOWEVER you may be interested to hear that I'm planning not to use it for my next brew...

First of all, it works absolutely perfectly. As you say, it's pretty slow - about 6 litres per hour - but that's not a problem so long as you don't mind collecting your water the day before you intend to brew. One other thing to be aware of, mind, is that it produces quite a lot of 'waste' water: part of the process is that it produces about three times as much 'black' water as pure. Again nothing wrong with that; the whole process altogether probably uses about the same as a couple of baths-full, and the 'black' water (actually it's just very slightly more minerally) needn't go waste if you can use it for irrigation or whatever.

Also I have been very pleased with the beer that this water has made. I've added some minerals back into it (a little Epsom salts and a little table salt) to give the yeast something to 'chew' on, but the fermentations (with Safale S04) have gone like a train and cleared down beautifully. My only caveat has been that from a subjective point of view the beers (all-grain hoppy English Pale Ale) have seemed a bit lacking in body and character. Not problematically, but something I want to work on. And after due consultation, I've been advised by a few people here that the very pure water might be a part of the issue (probably the yeast too, but that's a different story).

Anyhow to cut a long story short, I bit the bullet and started reading up about water chemistry and talking to a few knowledgable and helpful people on the forum (step forward and take a bow, @strange-steve and others). My initial objective in that was to work out how better to 'fine tune' what I was adding to my RO+DI water to make the 'best' profile for the style of ales I want to brew. However the more I learned and listened, the more they convinced me that it makes far more sense (and it's easier!) to just start with the water I've got, and adapt that. In fact, my water's fine: it just has a bit too much alkalinity.

So in summary - yes it's a great system (I do actually use it for rinsing off the car and washing the windows) but you probably don't need it for brewing... the risk is, you take out a lot of trace elements that are actually useful to the yeast and add character to your beer.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Pic of my setup - the big blue bottle is the DI vessel - it needn't be that big, it's just one I happened to have already.
White tubing is the tap water input; blue is pure output; black is waste water out.

 

[MackemBrew]

Yes, I fitted a similar system a few weeks back... in fact, I went a step further and also got a de-ionisation (DI) stage which takes the water right down to a big fat 0.000 on my TDS meter. My motivation was that I live in whatI perceived to be a very hard water area (St Albans): our showers certainly coke up faster than Mother Shipton's cave.

Well I can say it's a very neat system and it works a treat. HOWEVER you may be interested to hear that I'm planning not to use it for my next brew...

First of all, it works absolutely perfectly. As you say, it's pretty slow - about 6 litres per hour - but that's not a problem so long as you don't mind collecting your water the day before you intend to brew. One other thing to be aware of, mind, is that it produces quite a lot of 'waste' water: part of the process is that it produces about three times as much 'black' water as pure. Again nothing wrong with that; the whole process altogether probably uses about the same as a couple of baths-full, and the 'black' water (actually it's just very slightly more minerally) needn't go waste if you can use it for irrigation or whatever.

Also I have been very pleased with the beer that this water has made. I've added some minerals back into it (a little Epsom salts and a little table salt) to give the yeast something to 'chew' on, but the fermentations (with Safale S04) have gone like a train and cleared down beautifully. My only caveat has been that from a subjective point of view the beers (all-grain hoppy English Pale Ale) have seemed a bit lacking in body and character. Not problematically, but something I want to work on. And after due consultation, I've been advised by a few people here that the very pure water might be a part of the issue (probably the yeast too, but that's a different story).

Anyhow to cut a long story short, I bit the bullet and started reading up about water chemistry and talking to a few knowledgable and helpful people on the forum (step forward and take a bow, @strange-steve and others). My initial objective in that was to work out how better to 'fine tune' what I was adding to my RO+DI water to make the 'best' profile for the style of ales I want to brew. However the more I learned and listened, the more they convinced me that it makes far more sense (and it's easier!) to just start with the water I've got, and adapt that. In fact, my water's fine: it just has a bit too much alkalinity.

So in summary - yes it's a great system (I do actually use it for rinsing off the car and washing the windows) but you probably don't need it for brewing... the risk is, you take out a lot of trace elements that are actually useful to the yeast and add character to your beer.

Thanks for this!
So at the moment I have been adjusting my normal tap water and have had decent results. Thing is I've just got myself a small lockup for storage and this will be where I am brewing moving forward and the water just doesn't seem too good, hence the reason of wanting to strip it back (it may just be that the unit had sat empty for a little while).

The timing thing Is a bit of a worry for me, im not really in the position to collect my water the day before due to travelling to the lock up! The waste is also a bit of a concern which I had not thought about...i was expecting some but not that much! I may look at trying to get some sort of filter system, Brita style, rather than a full RO system

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Ah yes, understood!

Before splashing out on the Brita approach (which will basically be an activated carbon filter) do you think it might be worth doing a quick test on the water at your lockup to see what's in it? might be a good idea anyhow, as an activated carbon filter won't help you if the alkalinity is a bit squiffy...

As suggested in Steve's very approachable 'Basic Water Treatment' thread, I just got the 'Salifert' tests for KH/Alk and Ca. They are dead easy to get via Amazon and pretty good fun to do, too... they come with a little test tube, measuring syringes and droppers - makes you feel like a Nobel chemist LoL

 

[AdeDunn]

I used to use one, now I just use tap water and treat it with campden tablet and CRS/AMS to adjust the alkalinity.

If you are wanting to treat because you have chloramine in your tap water, I would recommend looking into carbon block filters before you look at RO. They don't produce waste water they way an RO does (even with a flow restrictor, it's over 80% waste (the actual amount can vary depending on the model, water pressure etc), I ran an RO for years as I kept sensitive dwarf freshwater shrimp.). If however you just have chlorine in your water, campden tablets do the job, then CRS for the alkalinity, and your normal water additions for whatever else you need. For example I don't add Epsom salts any more, even though water reports and calcs say I should, because of uhm effects... Beer comes out great without it though, just with a bit of gypsum and a bit of table salt for pale ales.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

If however you just have chlorine in your water, campden tablets do the job

According to that irreproachable source Wikipedia (so it must be true.. ) Camden tabs also remove chloramine...

 

[AdeDunn]

According to that irreproachable source Wikipedia (so it must be true.. ) Camden tabs also remove chloramine...

A quick google for other sources says the same thing, so yeah probably. I just know on the aquarium side folks found that using dechlorinator they were left with ammonia or ammonium which wasn't wanted, which left them either having to filter with zeolite/zeolith, or just use activate carbon filtration instead of dechlorinator. From a home brewing perspective, never had to test it out, as I don't live in an area where chloramine is used. Heck, sources even say a gentle 30 minute boil will remove chloramine.

 

[strange-steve]

I just know on the aquarium side folks found that using dechlorinator they were left with ammonia or ammonium which wasn't wanted, which left them either having to filter with zeolite/zeolith, or just use activate carbon filtration instead of dechlorinator.

That's true, the reaction between chloramine and sodium metabisulphite does produce ammonium, but for brewers that's not an issue because ammonium is a yeast nutrient as a source of nitrogen. Plus it's such a tiny amount it's probably irrelevant.

 

[ChilledGecko]

I've just had a 100 GPD 5 stage delivered, I'll be fitting it in the next few days.
I'm hoping it will allow me to brew beers that don't taste like 'home brew' and allow me to have some measure of control to hit the water types of the beers I'll brew here on in.

I'm in a very hard water area which seems to be only fairly OK for stouts. Hence the RO system

 

[ChilledGecko]

Hijacking the thread a little, sorry @MackemBrew, has anyone fitted an automatic shutoff add on kit to their system?

I'm planning the fit this to allow me to turn it on the evening/day before and have a sparkling tank of RO water waiting for me the next day.

I'm awaiting a ball valve to arrive but I have the four way auto valve and one way valve sitting ready to go.
Doing some research indicates what connections are what for the auto valve but the youtube videos seem to differ as to where the auto valve is fitted.

I currently plan to fit the 'high side' (non screw side) between the filter set output and the membrane input then fit the 'low side' (screw side) between the membrane output and the DI cylinder input.

Some, mainly seems to be American, connect into the waste side of the membrane. Perhaps due to differing regulations?

Any thoughts / advice?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

I'm awaiting a ball valve to arrive but I have the four way auto valve and one way valve sitting ready to go.

I'm afraid I've not had experience with such a setup - personally I just set a timer to remind me to go and check, as my pure water flow-rate is pretty constant.
Also, forgive my ignorance but could you not just use a simple ballcock like you'd have in a cold water header tank?

Something like this - input from mains supply; output to RO unit (connected with silicone hose and zip-tie) - tank fed from RO pure water output. Water level pushes float up, RO input is shut off...

 

[ChilledGecko]

Hi @The-Engineer-That-Brews
I'm not certain about the why the shut off is needed but from what I've read the implication is that the membrane doesn't like to be under pressure without a flow passing through it.
It seems to be a standard addition when anything that blocks the output is added to the system.
Generally a ball valve or drinking tap addition.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Hi @The-Engineer-That-Brews
I'm not certain about the why the shut off is needed but from what I've read the implication is that the membrane doesn't like to be under pressure without a flow passing through it.
It seems to be a standard addition when anything that blocks the output is added to the system.
Generally a ball valve or drinking tap addition.

Indeed - that’s why I suggested to connect the output of the ballcock between the mains and the input of the RO unit, rather than putting it on the pure water output...
Mind you, even if you did shut off the pure water output it wouldn‘t put the membrane under pressure because the excess would just go out the waste flow

 

[ChilledGecko]

Hmmm, this needs more investigation.
The Americans do favour the auto shut off unit fitted to the waste output.
I wasn't aware that the waste operated in a way that 'leaked' water under a closed clean output.

I think I may fit as is and make some observations....

Thanks for that information engineer

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

My pleasure @ChilledGecko - apologies if sounded like I was interfering :-)

So despite the complex-looking tangle of pipes, 'inside' a three-stage RO unit (plus optional fourth DI stage) all you've got is this:

Makes it a bit easier to see what's going on...

 

[itry]

Hijacking the thread a little, sorry @MackemBrew, has anyone fitted an automatic shutoff add on kit to their system?

I'm planning the fit this to allow me to turn it on the evening/day before and have a sparkling tank of RO water waiting for me the next day.

I'm awaiting a ball valve to arrive but I have the four way auto valve and one way valve sitting ready to go.
Doing some research indicates what connections are what for the auto valve but the youtube videos seem to differ as to where the auto valve is fitted.

I currently plan to fit the 'high side' (non screw side) between the filter set output and the membrane input then fit the 'low side' (screw side) between the membrane output and the DI cylinder input.

Some, mainly seems to be American, connect into the waste side of the membrane. Perhaps due to differing regulations?

Any thoughts / advice?

i have a controlled programable shut off kit to be installed in to my set up.

 

[AdeDunn]

Mine came with an auto shut off, as it's a tanked system that came with a "faucet" (which I replaced with a plastic ball valve tap so I could tuck it away in a cupboard). You can buy a complete kit though, with float valve, for just over £12 from RO-Man.

 

[Spratt]

Thanks for this!
So at the moment I have been adjusting my normal tap water and have had decent results. Thing is I've just got myself a small lockup for storage and this will be where I am brewing moving forward and the water just doesn't seem too good, hence the reason of wanting to strip it back (it may just be that the unit had sat empty for a little while).

The timing thing Is a bit of a worry for me, im not really in the position to collect my water the day before due to travelling to the lock up! The waste is also a bit of a concern which I had not thought about...i was expecting some but not that much! I may look at trying to get some sort of filter system, Brita style, rather than a full RO system

If you don't want to take the plunge straight away, you could just buy the RO water you need from an aquarium store. I only use RO water in lagers and buy 75 litres worth at a time for less than a tenner (I think it's about 13p per litre). I then tend to use Bru'n'Water to work out what I need according to the percentage RO I'm using. I probably make the RO between 40 and 60% of my brew so my 75 litres lasts a fair while. I do BIAB and only need about 35 to 40 litres of water per brew.

You could take say 25 litres to your lockup in one container and make up the balance with Brita filtered water in another container.