RIMS along the lines of Speidel Braumeister

[EskiBrew]

I have split this off from the original thread because it was getting hijacked - by me

Agreed regarding the computer. My main interest is in the more compact brewing size - a three pot system for me would cause logistic problems for storage :?

 

[Kev888]

My main interest is in the more compact brewing size - a three pot system for me would cause logistic problems for storage :?

+1; I currently have to brew way out in the garage away from water, drains etc (lots of aggro in winter when everything freezes solid) - I'd like something small enough to be more handy without having to compromise on what it can do.

Cheers,
Kev

 

[EskiBrew]

Ok, taking this a bit further (perhaps I should move this comments to a new thread as it is hijacking the original poster ).

Assuming I want to be able to brew two cornies worth at a time then I will expect to finish with 40 litres.
I need approx 9kg grist and if I assume boil evaporation rate of 20% per hour then assuming liquor to grist ratio of 2.5 litres per kg then I will start the boil at approx 58 litres.

I therefore need a stock pot of at least 70 litres volume.

Does this add up to you :wha:

 

[Vossy1]

Does this add up to you

Yep. I used to have 70ltr HLT and copper and 50ltr mash tun. You will want to make the brew slightly larger than 40ltrs, as you'll lose at least a ltr to the fv, and if may lose some to the ferment via a blow off tube......I used to make mine 46ltr which also gave me a few bottles for storage, or I'd drink it on the spot :lol:

 

[EskiBrew]

Thanks Vossy - got the mind going now - how to make the "grain pipe" thingy :wha:

 

[Kev888]

I therefore need a stock pot of at least 70 litres volume. Does this add up to you :wha:

Yes thats what I get too - doing some rough calcs and downrating my efficiencies a bit, I estimated 'at least' 63L for a 3% mild up to 86L for a 7% hoppy APA.

But one thing about the Braumeister is they say you top up after the mash and some people even do a manual BIAB-type sparge as they do so. I don't fully understand why; if its just to reduce the size of the system or if theres a brewing-related reason for mashing stiffer.

My own attraction to the system would be partly convenience, so I'd like to brew full-volume, no-sparge, even if theres a modest hit in efficiency. From what I can tell, the diastatic power shouldn't be too diluted with normal grain bills...

got the mind going now - how to make the "grain pipe" thingy :wha:

I've seen a DIY version (called something like 'braumeiser' - I think on an Aussie forum, and I've also seen one called BrauBushka on youtube) where they used an inner pot complete with base, to get over having to seal a pipe against the boiler's bottom (which thay had problems doing).

I'm thinking that sounds easier, but it makes it slightly harder to let the incoming wort get underneath the grain - you could have a pipe coming down from above to an outlet at the bottom of the inner pot, or you could have a hole in the bottom of the inner pot that seals around an inlet nozzle when its in place. The former sounds easier/safer, but theres a need to let the wort drain out somehow when it comes to lifiting out the inner pot (and not before), whereas the latter would leave a hole naturally when you started to lift the pot, unsealing it from the nozzle. (I may have described that a bit badly)..

EDIT: on another forum a chap called Steve very kindly posted this link to a zip-file with pdfs etc detailing his build, which is quite inspiring.

Cheers
Kev

 

[Vossy1]

Yes thats what I get too - doing some rough calcs and downrating my efficiencies a bit, I estimated 'at least' 63L for a 3% mild up to 86L for a 7% hoppy APA.

That's pre boil I assume. Down rating your efficiency to what.......it'd have to be pretty low :shock: 20% boil off per hour eskimobob, that's a tad on the high side too, I'd start 10% and work up, even with 2x2.75kw elements I wouldn't get 20%, in fact just over 10%
You should be easily able to produce 7% beers to 46ltr using a 50ltr tun and 70ltr boiler at around 80% efficiency.

 

[prolix]

My own attraction to the system would be partly convenience, so I'd like to brew full-volume, no-sparge, even if theres a modest hit in efficiency. From what I can tell, the diastatic power shouldn't be too diluted with normal grain bills...
Kev

I have done full 60l volume mashes, recirculating the mash through the boiler and no hit on efficency worth mentioning (Rims really)

 

[Kev888]

Yes thats what I get too - doing some rough calcs and downrating my efficiencies a bit, I estimated 'at least' 63L for a 3% mild up to 86L for a 7% hoppy APA.

That's pre boil I assume.

Yes, pre-boil - during the mash: with a full-volume/no-sparge setup the biggest volume is when you have all the grain and all the liquor (before any losses) in at the same time. You could mash at more normal stiffness and either sparge or top-up, but I think I'd prefer to use my 3vessel setup for that sort of thing.

I have done full 60l volume mashes, recirculating the mash through the boiler and no hit on efficency worth mentioning (Rims really)

That sounds encouraging, thanks!

Cheers
kev

 

[EskiBrew]

Thanks for the thoughts guys and thanks for mentioning that someone had made a clone Kev - it seems from a little googling that there are multiple clones so plenty of research for me to do. Seen one on Youtube where it is built on a trolley on wheels - nice to be able to move it :thumb:

I can see the attraction of using a standard inner pot but I like the grain pipe idea better - need to do more research :thumb:

 

[EskiBrew]

If I'm thinking along the lines of a 70 litre pot, I wonder if they make 70 litre thermoboxes?

Also, does anyone know where to buy the heating elements that you can form to shape yourself? - The post that Kev888 made earlier linked to a PDF which talks about buying a 316 SS heating element which you can bend yourself :thumb:

 

[Swift Pint]

But one thing about the Braumeister is they say you top up after the mash and some people even do a manual BIAB-type sparge as they do so. I don't fully understand why; if its just to reduce the size of the system or if theres a brewing-related reason for mashing stiffer.

From what I've read on the BIAB forum there are no issues in terms of conversion time or efficiency related to having a very diluted mash (at least in the kind of range that we are talking about), so I wouldnt worry about that. Doing a stiffer mash and then adding water/doing some sort of sparge is going to reduce efficiency though.

My own attraction to the system would be partly convenience, so I'd like to brew full-volume, no-sparge, even if theres a modest hit in efficiency. From what I can tell, the diastatic power shouldn't be too diluted with normal grain bills...

Again, reading the BIAB forums, I don't think you'd really see a hit in efficiency, most guys seem to be getting a good 75%-80% efficiency. Also, because you dont need to worry about getting a stuck mash you can grind your grain a lot finer which helps extraction.

I dont really understand what you mean by a grain pipe? :wha:

 

[EskiBrew]

Again, reading the BIAB forums, I don't think you'd really see a hit in efficiency, most guys seem to be getting a good 75%-80% efficiency. Also, because you dont need to worry about getting a stuck mash you can grind your grain a lot finer which helps extraction.

Surely though without a sparge step, there would be considerable sugars left in the malt which would therefore seriously affect efficiency??

I dont really understand what you mean by a grain pipe? :wha:

The "grain pipe" is the inner container into which the grist goes. It is basically a stainless tube hence the pipe name. :thumb:

 

[Swift Pint]

Surely though without a sparge step, there would be considerable sugars left in the malt which would therefore seriously affect efficiency??

I think its because the full volume of water is in contact with the grain for the durarion of the mash, so the sugars become dissolved during this time. The BIAB forum guys refer to this as a "passive sparge".

The "grain pipe" is the inner container into which the grist goes. It is basically a stainless tube hence the pipe name.

ah, that makes sense. :thumb:

 

[Kev888]

From what I've read on the BIAB forum there are no issues in terms of conversion time or efficiency related to having a very diluted mash (at least in the kind of range that we are talking about), so I wouldnt worry about that. Doing a stiffer mash and then adding water/doing some sort of sparge is going to reduce efficiency though.
Again, reading the BIAB forums, I don't think you'd really see a hit in efficiency, most guys seem to be getting a good 75%-80% efficiency. Also, because you dont need to worry about getting a stuck mash you can grind your grain a lot finer which helps extraction.

Yeah, I've read quite a bit about BIAB and even done a few small batches that way, so I know its not pants in terms of efficiency (as you sometimes see claimed). Its a bit muddied though as a lot of BIAB'ers seem to do a small sort of sparge and so do some braumeister users, to get it a bit higher, but quite a few need to top up as well for capacity reasons. Also I suspect that in general (not just in BIAB) people's calculated efficiencies can be a bit open to interpretation. So I tend to agree and I'm certainly not put off, but for capacity planning I'm thinking perhaps its best to err slightly on the side of pessimism and hope to be pleasantly surprised.

Also, does anyone know where to buy the heating elements that you can form to shape yourself? - The post that Kev888 made earlier linked to a PDF which talks about buying a 316 SS heating element which you can bend yourself :thumb:

I don't know of SS ones, but cateringparts UK on ebay do some bendable ones (here - though not the first couple listed) and also some gland kits. I've had a couple before and they've been quite good, but between the two (of different lengths) their diameters were slightly different so i struggled to get the glands on one of them - though presumably you could ask them to check compatibility before sending. (IIRC, apparently a certain amount at the end is supposed to stay straight).

Cheers
kev

 

[EskiBrew]

I don't know of SS ones, but cateringparts UK on ebay do some bendable ones (here - though not the first couple listed) and also some gland kits. I've had a couple before and they've been quite good, but between the two (of different lengths) their diameters were slightly different so i struggled to get the glands on one of them - though presumably you could ask them to check compatibility before sending. (IIRC, apparently a certain amount at the end is supposed to stay straight).

Ah - excellent - thanks Kev :thumb:

Right then - let's say I go for a 70 litre stock pot from here - that has a diameter of 450mm. If I want something like two turns of heating element then that equates to about 3 metres of heating element maximum. The longest they seem to stock is 7 foot so that might have to do. Does that sound right :wha:

I am thinking though that I might want to use a thermobox instead of a stock pot because the insulation will help when using a smaller kW element :hmm:

 

[Kev888]

Yes that sounds about right; though with a bit of clearance from the sides perhaps a bit less so perhaps 7' isn't too far short - and of course as the ends don't have to exit the pot together you could have 1.x times turns to keep the diameter you want.

The longest one I had from them was 5' (IIRC), but the 3kw immersion heater I currently have in the boiler can't be more than 3' long in total, and thats low enough watt-density not to burn wort on, just collect a bit of (unburnt) break in 90mins, so 7' should be more than enough.

The thermopot would be better in terms of efficiency (obviously), though the extra skin would take a tad more consideration for fittings etc. I'm probably going to convert my existing boiler but i will still then clad it in insulation and also some sort of exterior shell for that -a rims could probably compensate without it but its still quite a lot of wort to keep warm and then boiling. If I were buying from scratch though, i'd imagine the cost and effort of retro-fitting insulation and cladding would make the thermopot look much better value.

Cheers
kev

 

[Vossy1]

I like the look of those elements.....didn't even know they existed

 

[EskiBrew]

the 3kw immersion heater I currently have in the boiler can't be more than 3' long in total, and thats low enough watt-density not to burn wort on, just collect a bit of (unburnt) break in 90mins, so 7' should be more than enough.

It's good to know that a 3' length is low enough watt density not to scortch the wort. That works out about 33 W/cm which doesn't sound a lot.

They don't do a 3kW version at 7' long so I might be tempted to go for the 6' length in 3kW therefore only 15 W/cm :thumb:

 

[prolix]

how formable are they?

the entry would have to be at right angles to the wall so it would have to go straight across then bend around I make that roughly 7 foot