Pre 95 Boddingtons anyone ?

[Northern_Brewer]

I was told the yeast was a special strain. Think it could be the key to the old Boddie's.

All traditional brewers like to big up the "specialness" of their yeast - and yes, it's a way more important contributor to the flavour than the typical hophead realises. As above, the really notable feature of the Boddies yeast in the "classic" period was its crazy high attenuation.

Sure I read somewhere the yeast was changed somewhere along the way.

It's hard to tell what is myth and what's not. There doesn't seem to be evidence in the attenuation recorded during the late 70s/ early 80s that the yeast changed during the period when "Boddies went wrong". Ron's found a note of their yeast in the 1920s coming from Tadcaster, and they had to start again from scratch with yeast from Tadcaster after they were bombed in WWII, so the idea that they lost their yeast may date to then.

It's also known that the Boddies yeast didn't take to being contract-brewed at Hyde's so they switched, presumably to using the Hyde's yeast instead.

Then there's Wyeast 1318 London Ale III, which the USians are convinced is the Boddies yeast. Genetic analysis suggests it's just another Whitbread yeast - it's closely related to Wyeast 1098 - and it's clearly not the diastatic yeast of Boddies' heyday. My personal suspicion is that it originated in a bottle of Boddies Pub Ale, which is their export variant briefly sold in the UK as Boddies Export, brewed at a Whitbread brewery with a Whitbread yeast, some time after Strangeways closed.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Hyde's anvil bitter in in the late 70's 80's was a lovely drink and very much in the style of boddie's , my uncle Billy worked most of his life at Sam smiths in Tadcaster but retired before i started drinking, i would love to brew a boddie's but like it is said you need the yeast

 

[peebee]

I hated Boddingtons, but after reading through this thread and knowing I moved to Manchester in the late 1980s, it seems I had well and truly "missed the boat".

More recently, when learning about this "saccharomyces cerevisiae v. diastaticus" yeast business, one of the big US homebrew yeast suppliers (Wyeast or Whitelabs?) listed a Manchester Ale strain (occasionally) with a warning about potential "v. diastaticus" infection. In other references Boddington's bitter was also being suggested as being subject to "v. diastaticus" and therefore very highly attenuated. Whitelabs now clearly labels its "Manchester Ale" yeast "STA1 negative" i.e. no "v. diastaticus", and only 70-75% attenuation (i.e. "average"). Can't find any connected references in Wyeasts website. Seems this "v. diastaticus" thing is an evolving subject?

But @Northern_Brewer to the rescue. He points out this "Omega Gulo" stuff for anyone wanting to brew Boddington's to that idea (might not be an idea, perhaps Boddington's bitter really was infected with "v. diastaticus" yeast???).

I'll stay clear, I'm very much a low attenuation supporter (though I do like a Saison, but they are "Saison" and aren't pretending to be "beer", nor do they need to). Note: "Var. diastaticus" is considered to be an "infection". Ensure your yeasts observe good hand hygiene and social distancing at all times . Actually, it can't be that much of a threat; most of us have used Saison yeasts and most (all?) of them are "STA1 positive".


BTW. Don't believe some of the cobblers I've seen on the Internet that yeast needs the STA1 gene ("S. cerevisiae v. diastaticus" yeasts) to ferment "dextrin": Most yeast ferments "dextrin", but the STA1 gene makes the yeast more effective at dealing with dextrin including some otherwise complex "unfermentable" dextrin.

Here's an article about "v. diastaticus" yeast. Not included because I think it's a well research and referenced article (but probably more believable than me!), but I do like the warning of "Shrapnel injuries to the consumer"! Controlling Diastaticus in Your Brewery | Chai + PIKA

 

[trummy]

Back in the day I really really enjoyed it - I remember it was served with a 'head'. There was a pub in the Wye valley that served beer straight out of the barrel cooled by water running down the rock face the pub was built against. All the beers served had low carbonation. For Boddies that did not work at all, its one of the few beers thatneeded a head.
It is a pity as its the last memory of real Boddies as I remember it - no pubs around here ever served it, and on a subsequent trip up Manchester way, it really was not worth pouring , never mind drinking.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

one of the big US homebrew yeast suppliers (Wyeast or Whitelabs?) listed a Manchester Ale strain (occasionally) with a warning about potential "v. diastaticus" infection. In other references Boddington's bitter was also being suggested as being subject to "v. diastaticus" and therefore very highly attenuated. Whitelabs now clearly labels its "Manchester Ale" yeast "STA1 negative" i.e. no "v. diastaticus", and only 70-75% attenuation (i.e. "average"). Can't find any connected references in Wyeasts website. Seems this "v. diastaticus" thing is an evolving subject?

I'd imagine you're thinking of WLP038, which as a Beer2 "saison"-type yeast you would expect to be diastatic and was marked as such until earlier this year. Suregork et al published a paper in 2019 which showed that although many yeast strains have the STA1 gene and so came up positive in the DNA tests used at the time, the gene was broken and so they did not exhibit diastatic behaviour. I imagine what's changed is that they now use more realistic tests that only come up positive if the gene is active.

perhaps Boddington's bitter really was infected with "v. diastaticus" yeast???)...."Var. diastaticus" is considered to be an "infection".

Don't be so bloody stupid. It's not an "infection" when it is responsible for the key characteristic of the beer, in the same way as Brettanomyces is sometimes an unwanted infection and sometimes gives you Orval. It's like in the garden, sometimes you want to get rid of brambles, sometimes you cultivate them because you want blackberries. That doesn't mean brambles are always "weeds".

 

[peebee]

I'd imagine you're thinking of WLP038 ...

That explains it.

As for " Don't be so bloody stupid", bit harsh? Although I was failing to sprinkle enough of those quotation marks about (i.e. not my words!). That bunch I linked don't think it's "bloody stupid", but they're trying to make money out of the alleged "infections" (they call 'em "beer spoilers"; and even perhaps hand-grenade manufacturers?).

And you skipped the question: Was it known if the yeast in use by Boddington's in the 1970s, early 80s, was diastatic(us)? You do suggest using "Gulo" yeast.

But I like being "bloody stupid" at times; a prize for sniffing it out in this post!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As for " Don't be so bloody stupid", bit harsh? Although I was failing to sprinkle enough of those quotation marks about (i.e. not my words!). That bunch I linked don't think it's "bloody stupid", but they're trying to make money out of the alleged "infections" (they call 'em "beer spoilers"; and even perhaps hand-grenade manufacturers?).

They made no mention of Boddington's, it was only you using "infection" in relation to Boddies. And even the Chai article you refer to makes it clear that "While diastatic yeasts are sometimes used intentionally for their super-attenuating properties in the production of sours and dry saisons, they cause secondary fermentations in regular packaged products"

And they then go on to talk about diastaticus in that context, which is the usual one for USian brewers as they generally buy in their yeast and there was a multi-$m lawsuit over diastaticus contamination of WLP090 in 2016.

you skipped the question: Was it known if the yeast in use by Boddington's in the 1970s, early 80s, was diastatic(us)? You do suggest using "Gulo" yeast.

We know from the archives that they were getting apparent attenuations over 91% in the 1970s whilst mashing at 66C. Yes there was 10% sugar in there, but the working assumption must surely be that their "Tadcaster" yeast was diastatic.

 

[peebee]

... We know from the archives that they were getting apparent attenuations over 91% in the 1970s whilst mashing at 66C. Yes there was 10% sugar in there, but the working assumption must surely be that their "Tadcaster" yeast was diastatic.

That's what I were after! Thanks very much. It's even tempting to have a go at that 91% attenuated (FG 1.003) Boddies beer ...

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I had already mentioned that 91% attenuation in post #8, sigh.

 

[peebee]

Na, na, na. You just don't understand. Here ... try one of these

 

[Big_Eight]

Thing is, the magic of 1970s Boddies isn't really in "the recipe" as such, it's more about process and ingredients. In 1901 and 1987 it was essentially a SMaSH of pale malt and English hops, albeit rather stronger in 1901! Between those dates they had small amounts of a variety of adjuncts such as sugar and maize, but perhaps the defining feature of "classic" Boddies was the crazy attenuation they got, which could be over 91% (see the 1971 recipe) - and that was mashing at 66°C. So even if you're using a fairly high-attenuating yeast like Nottingham, you're going to need to help it with some adjuncts, and I think you'll have to mash lower than they did at Strangeways. All we know about the yeast is that it came from Tadcaster after Boddies were bombed in WWII, but I suspect something like Omega Gulo might be an interesting way to achieve the attenuation you need.

Ron Pattinson posted extensively about the decline of Boddies earlier this year, and it's clear that it wasn't any one thing that happened. They switched from using "traditional English" barley varieties to the more modern Triumph (around 1979 from memory), in the early eighties they started using much older hops, all sorts of small changes like that.

But if you want to get somewhere close, you want to aim for an ABV of around 4% so an OG in the high 1.030s depending on yeast attenuation, and BU:GU in the 0.80-0.90 range, which will probably mean in the ballpark of 32 IBU. They used a blend of hops from different farms, probably a mishmash of stuff like WGV and Target with Goldings as a dry hop, so use whatever English hops you have to hand but for simplicity you can never go wrong with all Goldings.

They were boiling for 90-120 minutes, but 60 minutes will be fine
Whatever weight of hops you used for bittering, add the same again at 30 minutes, and a third of that amount as a dry hop.

86% Maris Otter pale (mix in a bit of pilsner or MO extra pale if you have it to hand)
4% wheat
10% golden syrup

Mash at 66°C if you're using a diastatic yeast like Gulo, 63°C otherwise.
Yeast - highest attenuation one you can find, you're aiming for apparent attenuation over 90%.

But if you're seriously interested in recreating Boddies then you have to read Ron Pattinson's articles from earlier this year when he did a deep delve into the archives, see :
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search/label/Boddington
Also Orfy's thread on HBT :
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/boddingtons-bitter.21131/

I've been using wyeast 1318. I'm getting ready to brew the '71 version from Ron's site. I think I'll try the Omega Gulo and see what happens. I'll mash slightly lower also and see what happens thanks for the advise! I'm one of the USAians from Orfy's thread.

 

[BridgeBrew]

Bloody Hell ! My little Boddies post seems to have caused a bit of controversy. I was just reminiscing about the Boddies i supped as a young chap. The best pint of it i ever had was in the Grey Horse in Heaton Chapel, around about 88/89 me and a mate used to go in every Saturday (he lived round the corner from the horse) The landlord was a real beer nut, it was superb. I really dont know if i'm missing the beer, or the atmosphere in that pub on a Saturday , don, crib, dart's, rammed out. Oh the good old day's. I'll keep on trying to emulate the old Boddies, it's my Grail, i think Dextrin, Marris, EK goldings are a good place to start. Good Luck.

 

[An Ankoù]

Regardless of attenuation, which yeast do people think would be likely to provide the best "Boddington's" flavour?

While I agree with NB about different kinds of yeasts having their place in different styles, Peebee also makes a lot of sense (although he'll hate me for saying so) and there's no way I'm going to risk contaminating my equipment with the diastaticus varient when the same result can be achieved by adding amyloglucosidase to the fermenting beer, A needless risk!

I'm not even sure, I haven't got it knocking around somewhere as my last batch of Five Point is beginning to gush after several months in the bottle, and my last use of US-05 has left an FG of 1003. And I thought my cleaning regime was pretty nuclear! It's time I got out the Fisher-Price gene-sequencing kit I got for last Christmas.

Next rainy day, I'm going to look through this thread again, and all the links and formulate a recipe to see if I can experience this "nectar of the gods". In the meantime, I'm trying to create another untasted beer (to see what it tastes like) Pirate Life Pale Ale, but that's another story. See you on the Aussie/NZ forum.

 

[Clint]

Quite interesting all this talk on yeast and stuff...what's the professional brewers opinion on all this, if any?

 

[Galena]

I'm not even sure, I haven't got it knocking around somewhere as my last batch of Five Point is beginning to gush after several months in the bottle, and my last use of US-05 has left an FG of 1003. And I thought my cleaning regime was pretty nuclear!

Interesting, my cleaning regime is also pretty meticulous and yet I have had some gushers of late, my IPA is only fit for the drain and my Adnams Broadside which was a beautiful drink I was saving for Christmas has gone that way, at least the one I tried has.
I am kegging more these days in Cornies and not had the same problem, but then it does tend to get consumed quicker.

 

[peebee]

Question. (For NB perhaps, but has he brought that hammer I'd suggested to knock the answers in? I was only joking. Should I start running now?).

Is the startlingly low FG of post-war (presuming it was post WWII?) Boddington's Bitter unique in the UK? I thought I'd check the Tadcaster breweries (Boddington's yeast being allegedly sourced in Tad) for hints of extremely high attenuation in their beers (using Ron Pattinson's blogs & books), but no luck.

 

[Hanglow]

Both post war bottled bass and whiteshield had extremely high attenuation. At least I think they did, from what I recall reading Ron's posts and maybe some of the other good beer bloggers sites.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Is the startlingly low FG of post-war (presuming it was post WWII?) Boddington's Bitter unique in the UK?

CAMRA publications seem to suggest that by the 1970s it was an outlier, but far from unique. My immediate thought was Stones, which Ron reports attenuating their pale ales at 82% from the 1960s to 1990s for an FG of 1.007, which is certainly getting into diastatic territory.

If you assume that these kinds of recorded attenuations imply a diastatic yeast, that in turn implies a Beer2 "saison"-type yeast, which in turn means it probably has a high oxygen demand. My interpretation is that the fishtails on Yorkshire Squares are a technological response to the oxygen demands of such yeast, so I would be looking at northern breweries in general, and ones known to use squares in particular.

For instance, Black Sheep specifically mention the "dry finish" of their Ale, but I've not seen a reliable FG - might be worth buying a bottle and measuring a degassed sample?

Certainly in the 19th century, breweries were very keen that their export beers were well attenuated, to prevent cask-bombs from contaminants eating any residual sugar en route to India etc. So Burton has a reputation for high attenuation, although that may be a result of being left in the yard for months with Brett munching away, rather than Sacc.

 

[peebee]

@Hanglow: Not finding much for "Whiteshield" but Bass Pale Ale ("Red Triangle" mostly) is throwing some highly attenuated beers (1.003-1.004 FGs) but not consistently; may have not been intentional?

 

[Sadfield]

If you assume that these kinds of recorded attenuations imply a diastatic yeast,

Maybe implies diastatic activity. I wonder if hop creep may be a reason in some cases. I know Fuller's add hops at declaration (when yeast is pitched), so perhaps others did.