Please test my Simple Water Calculator

[RichardM]

I found the Simple Water Calculate so simple that I could use it. I have also been reading The Beginners Guide to Water Treatment and How To Use Salifert Alkalinity and Calcium Test Kits It's all good stuff @strange-steve.
All I need now is 1)To be able to input the colour in EBC, that's what I use in Beer Smith, 2) Know how to test for Sulphate and Chloride content (I used an old Murphy's report to get the numbers) 3) A simple table telling me what my targets should be for various styles (again, I used what Murphy recommend in their report)

 

[strange-steve]

I found the Simple Water Calculate so simple that I could use it. I have also been reading The Beginners Guide to Water Treatment and How To Use Salifert Alkalinity and Calcium Test Kits It's all good stuff @strange-steve.
All I need now is 1)To be able to input the colour in EBC, that's what I use in Beer Smith, 2) Know how to test for Sulphate and Chloride content (I used an old Murphy's report to get the numbers) 3) A simple table telling me what my targets should be for various styles (again, I used what Murphy recommend in their report)

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it :hat:
Regarding your notes:
1. EBC is basically SRM x2, so if you know the colour in EBC just double it.
2. I'm not sure if there are tests available for that, but afaik most water suppliers test for both so you should be able to get at least approximate values for those.
3. You're not the first to suggest this, have a look at posts 9 and 10 on page 1.

 

[RichardM]

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it :hat:
Regarding your notes:
1. EBC is basically SRM x2, so if you know the colour in EBC just double it.
2. I'm not sure if there are tests available for that, but afaik most water suppliers test for both so you should be able to get at least approximate values for those.
3. You're not the first to suggest this, have a look at posts 9 and 10 on page 1.

You point in post 10 about the profiles is spot on, my Murphy's report has wide recommend ranges e.g. for bitter, IPA and pale ale Calcium 180 to 220, chloride 150 to 300, Sulphite 250 to 450, alkalinity 30 to 50

 

[strange-steve]

I've made a couple of small updates to the calculator. For example, now if you get an error massage saying the CRS adds too much sulphate/chloride for your targets, it will tell you what the minimum target values are, including the CRS, so rather than randomly increasing the target values you'll know where to start.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Hi Steve, love the look of it

I couldn't get a result out of it because I use bottled water and I want to get 300ppm calcuim for my neipa so ideally i type in my water and target calcium and it tells me now much calcium chloride to add?

I have calcium 29mg, sulphate 18mg, Chloride 15mg, with a ph of 7.85?
theres also Magnesium 10mg, potassium 2.25mg, nitrate 2.6mg and bicarbonate 189mg.

As I extract brew are there the relevant options for me on the calculator?

am I going about this the wrong way?

 

[strange-steve]

Hi Steve, love the look of it

I couldn't get a result out of it because I use bottled water and I want to get 300ppm calcuim for my neipa so ideally i type in my water and target calcium and it tells me now much calcium chloride to add?

I have calcium 29mg, sulphate 18mg, Chloride 15mg, with a ph of 7.85?
theres also Magnesium 10mg, potassium 2.25mg, nitrate 2.6mg and bicarbonate 189mg.

As I extract brew are there the relevant options for me on the calculator?

am I going about this the wrong way?

First of all I know very little about extract brewing, but from what I've read I think it's generally recommended that soft, low alkalinity water is used because the minerals are already in the malt extract.

Next, 300ppm is a huge amount of calcium. Even for AG I typically go for less than half that.

With that water profile you've listed I'd probably just reduce the bicarbonate down to about 30ppm or so and maybe add a touch of calcium chloride. But as I say I have no experience with extract brewing. There's a good article on extract specific water treatment by Chris Colby which might help you out: Water Treatment for Extract Brewers

 

[dad_of_jon]

First of all I know very little about extract brewing, but from what I've read I think it's generally recommended that soft, low alkalinity water is used because the minerals are already in the malt extract.

Next, 300ppm is a huge amount of calcium. Even for AG I typically go for less than half that.

With that water profile you've listed I'd probably just reduce the bicarbonate down to about 30ppm or so and maybe add a touch of calcium chloride. But as I say I have no experience with extract brewing. There's a good article on extract specific water treatment by Chris Colby which might help you out: Water Treatment for Extract Brewers

Cheers steve, will check out the link. I seems then that my water is soft to start with. With regards to converting mg/l to ppm is it literally say 135mg/l = 135 ppm. sorry steve re: earlier its 300ppm chloride not calcium

 

[strange-steve]

Cheers steve, will check out the link. I seems then that my water is soft to start with. With regards to converting mg/l to ppm is it literally say 135mg/l = 135 ppm. sorry steve re: earlier its 300ppm chloride not calcium

Yep mg/L and ppm are the same thing (because 1 millionth of a litre has a mass of 1mg).

300ppm of chloride still sounds like a lot to me, have you used anything that high before?

 

[dad_of_jon]

Yep mg/L and ppm are the same thing (because 1 millionth of a litre has a mass of 1mg).

300ppm of chloride still sounds like a lot to me, have you used anything that high before?

Hi Steve, it's for this recipe......

All Together – NEIPA | The Malt Miller - see the comments at the end.

 

[user 18729]

I use 100ppm Chloride to 200ppm sulphate for hoppy beers. I’d be intrigued to hear what effect 300ppm gives to a NEIPA

 

[strange-steve]

Hi Steve, it's for this recipe......

All Together – NEIPA | The Malt Miller - see the comments at the end.

The problem with extract brewing though is that you don't know what the baseline is because you don't know the content of the water used to make the extract. So if you start adding salts you're really just shooting blind and there's no way of targeting a specific profile. Other than using low alkalinity water, I wouldn't be confident in giving you any more suggestions because I don't know enough about extract brewing I'm afraid. If you posted a new topic in the forum someone else might be able to help you out.

 

[UKSkydiver]

I'd love some feedback so if you'd like to give it a test or just play around with it then feel free.

Hi Steve
I'm only now trying to work my head around this stuff, having 'sorted' fermentation temperature and bottle priming out.

The detail in your "Beginner's Guide" and your calculator, probably not surprisingly, tell me to reduce my alkalinity by adding ~6ml CRS for approx 12 litres.

In terms of feedback - and this is just my view and I'm not expecting you to change your code to achieve this, but from a usability point of view, it's quite difficult to have to scroll up and down to input the info and to read the help notes as they aren't next to each other. Just my view.

It might also be worthwhile putting some general points in your "beginner's Guide" into the notes, to validate the outputs. e.g. for alkalinity, the bits that say:
"For a pale beer - 20 ppm, For an amber beer - 35 ppm, For a brown beer - 75 ppm, For a black beer - 120 ppm " I appreciate you can't incorporate all of the guide in the notes, so it's a question of balance.

Thanks, as ever.

 

[strange-steve]

it's quite difficult to have to scroll up and down to input the info and to read the help notes as they aren't next to each other.

That's a fair point. I developed it on a laptop with chrome for Windows and it looks better than on mobile because the notes are at the side plus the input boxes have help popups on hover. But I'm absolutely not a web developer, this was the first thing I ever coded (scripted?) and I found it difficult getting it to display in a readable format at all on a small screen size which is why some of the font sizing and stuff is messed up on mobile view.

It might also be worthwhile putting some general points in your "beginner's Guide" into the notes, to validate the outputs

Another fair point. I originally intended it to be just a calculator to help work out water additions rather than a complete tool for profile design. But you're not the first to suggest something similar so I might look into that.

 

[Martin O]

Hi Steve I used your calculator for the adjustments for my upcoming brew. Found it easy to to use and really liked the layout and the simplicity of being able to to input my target profile and having the calcs done for me.

Couple of questions is the addition of sulphate/chloride from any CRS added factored into the calculations for the other additions?

From reading you guides there is a reccomended upper limit as to how much of any addition you should add, would the result ever reccomended u go over the limit? If so it might be good if it came up with a warning message of some sort.

Thanks

 

[strange-steve]

@Martin O thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it :hat:

is the addition of sulphate/chloride from any CRS added factored into the calculations for the other additions?

Yes it is, gypsum and calcium chloride additions will be reduced to account for the CRS.

From reading you guides there is a reccomended upper limit as to how much of any addition you should add, would the result ever reccomended u go over the limit?

That's a good question. Depending on what target values have been entered, yes, for the simple reason that I don't really know what the upper limits are. My thoughts on certain aspects of water treatment have changed over the last couple of years, probably due to the fact that a lot of what I initially learned on the subject was based on information from American brewers. You might be aware though that they take a very different approach compared to brewers this side of the pond.

Now I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong, however from my own personal experience in trying both methods (and possibly some bias) I now very much lean towards the "British approach", the biggest difference being the amount of mineralisation of brewing water.

To take Bru'n Water as an example (although this is also the view of many US brewers and experts including Gordon Strong and AJ Hutch), it suggests a calcium range of 50 - 100ppm and a chloride range of 10 - 100ppm. Personally I use 100ppm calcium as a minimum (with some exceptions) and would happily use 200+ ppm chloride.

Now I'm sure there are upper limits for calcium, chloride, and sulphate but I couldn't say for sure what they are, and so have decided to leave it up to the individual brewer to decide what they deem an appropriate mineral level. My post on sulphate:chloride ratios might be due a rewrite soon.

 

[strange-steve]

On a possibly related subject, I'm currently reading a book which has a brief section on post-prohibition brewing in America which might go some way to explain their preference for lightly flavoured beers (italics mine):

When Prohibition was repealed in 1933 beer production began in earnest. Initially, only beer containing 3.2 % alcohol or less by volume was approved for sale. This worked well for the breweries in that less malt was required to make such a beer. In addition, the initial shortage of malt as the breweries came back online meant that other adjuncts would need to be used. Thus, rice and corn use in the manufacture of beer in the USA entered the scene en force.

Unfortunately, the initial rush to produce beer in quantity was immediately followed by World War II. Rationing of malt and other staplesduring the 1940s meant that the adjuncts initially used to help the breweries get by until malt production increased were to become an integral part of the standard recipe.

The continued production of the American Lager meant that the average US citizen learned to love and accept this as the only possible flavor of beer. Afterall, many beer drinkers in the 1940s and beyond had only this style available their entire life. After World War II, the production of the American Lager continued with vigor. And until the 1980s, there was very little else in the way of domestic beer styles to choose from.

 

[Martin O]

@Martin O thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it :hat:

Yes it is, gypsum and calcium chloride additions will be reduced to account for the CRS.

That's a good question. Depending on what target values have been entered, yes, for the simple reason that I don't really know what the upper limits are. My thoughts on certain aspects of water treatment have changed over the last couple of years, probably due to the fact that a lot of what I initially learned on the subject was based on information from American brewers. You might be aware though that they take a very different approach compared to brewers this side of the pond.

Now I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong, however from my own personal experience in trying both methods (and possibly some bias) I now very much lean towards the "British approach", the biggest difference being the amount of mineralisation of brewing water.

To take Bru'n Water as an example (although this is also the view of many US brewers and experts including Gordon Strong and AJ Hutch), it suggests a calcium range of 50 - 100ppm and a chloride range of 10 - 100ppm. Personally I use 100ppm calcium as a minimum (with some exceptions) and would happily use 200+ ppm chloride.

Now I'm sure there are upper limits for calcium, chloride, and sulphate but I couldn't say for sure what they are, and so have decided to leave it up to the individual brewer to decide what they deem an appropriate mineral level. My post on sulphate:chloride ratios might be due a rewrite soon.

Great I find it a pain trying to work out the additions from CRS, interesting didn't know there was difference in approach between American and British methods. I'm starting to document what I try now so I can find what I like for myself I'd like to be able to achieve a nice soft mouthfeel which some of the craft breweries seem to achieve.

 

[Keruso]

Hi, 1st time using it at the weekend and 1st time using additions. Really appreciate the effort and willingness to share. I did notice the sulphate:chloride ratio wasn't as expected. Calculator says 3:3, but with your IPA profile target figures of 250:75 I think it would be 10:3 ratio. The starting values are for Tesco Ashbeck water.

 

[strange-steve]

Hi, 1st time using it at the weekend and 1st time using additions. Really appreciate the effort and willingness to share. I did notice the sulphate:chloride ratio wasn't as expected. Calculator says 3:3, but with your IPA profile target figures of 250:75 I think it would be 10:3 ratio. The starting values are for Tesco Ashbeck water.

View attachment 26565

Thanks for your feedback, it's appreciated :hat:

Because a ratio is essentially a fraction the calculator expresses it as x/1, where x is sulphate divided by chloride, and the "to 1" is implied. So in your example it's not 3:3 but rather 3.3 to 1 (which is 250/75), but perhaps I should add a note to clarify that

 

[Keruso]

Thanks for your feedback, it's appreciated :hat:

Because a ratio is essentially a fraction the calculator expresses it as x/1, where x is sulphate divided by chloride, and the "to 1" is implied. So in your example it's not 3:3 but rather 3.3 to 1 (which is 250/75), but perhaps I should add a note to clarify that

Thanks, that makes sense, I think I inferred from your label of “Sulphate:Chloride Ratio“ that the result was 3:3 rather than 3.3 which it is, and of course correct. I’ve started to look at the variations of the Sulphate:Chloride ratio for beer recipes and styles, starting to make more sense