pH Stabiliser and CRS

[Galena]

Could somebody please explain
1) pH stabiliser - So if I get my mash water to the required pH, what doe adding pH stabiliser do, does it just keep it where it is?
2) CRS - What exactly does this do and what advantages/disadvantages over other means of water treatment as I have soft water I assume I don't need it?

 

[Galena]

Nobody then? Is it a stupid question?

 

[Hanglow]

1) The mash pH stabiliser sold is apparently only useful in incredibly limited situations - it's not really useful to homebrewers. I wouldn't use it.

Also you don't get your mash water to the correct pH, it's your entire mash including the grains that you get to the desired pH (5.4 is probably best general target)

2) CRS is a mix of acid salts to get the alkalinity of your liquor to the right level, you probably don't need to use it if your waters alkalinity is low, but that will depend on the grain used and any additional mineral salts you add, as things like gypsum also lower pH of the mash.

for example, I have soft and low alkalinity water, for a british pale ale I add quite a lot of gypsum and calcium chloride to it to get the amount of calcium and sulfate and chloride I want, this has the effect where I don't need to add any acid to the mash to get the right pH

But if I were to brew a low mineral pils with my water, I'd need to add a bit of acid to get the pH down. I tend to use lactic acid as it's useful for other things too.


Does that help?

 

[MartinHaworth]

Hi Galena,

Not a stupid question. There is no such thing,.

I don't use pH stabiliser, and I have read some blogs that speak against it.

To be clear, the pH of your mash water is not the important thing, it is the pH of you mash, and of course we need to be careful of temperature correction when taking a measure of that.

(NB when I started on water treatment, I found the brewing use of the term 'alkalinity' confusing as my A Level Chemistry taught me this was merely one end of the pH spectrum. Brewers do not use the term alkalinity in this 'strict' way. They are using the term more as 'Alkalinity as CaCO3', the tendency of the water to resist pH drop due to CaCO3)

The pH of your mash is influenced by both the grain bill and the starting water alkalinity (dark grains have an acidifying effect so you can start with a higher base alkalinity in your mash water when brewing dark)

I can't overstate the value in having an accurate water report, and of carrying out regular alkalinity tests (Salifert kits are cheap and easy). Without this, your water treatment is flying blind.

So, the starting alkalinity of your water and the grain bill are the two main things that control mash pH.

I have used CRS to adjust water alkalinity. Here in Norfolk the starting alkalinity of the water as CaCO3 is 218mg/L, so for pale beers I am using c1.1ml/L to get it down to c20mg/L. For darker beers I use perhaps half that.

I do use calculators, but I am one of those nerds who like to know 'how' the additions and numbers work.

Sometimes I do all the sums with pen and paper, sometimes I use calculators, sometimes I just add in what experience tells me is the correct amount!

I would commend to you the several excellent threads started by @strange-steve on water treatment under the 'water' section of the forum. I suspect a post there would get a faster and clearer response than my ramblings.....

Best wishes

Martin
Hope this helps.

 

[Galena]

Hi Galena,

Not a stupid question. There is no such thing,.

I don't use pH stabiliser, and I have read some blogs that speak against it.

To be clear, the pH of your mash water is not the important thing, it is the pH of you mash, and of course we need to be careful of temperature correction when taking a measure of that.

(NB when I started on water treatment, I found the brewing use of the term 'alkalinity' confusing as my A Level Chemistry taught me this was merely one end of the pH spectrum. Brewers do not use the term alkalinity in this 'strict' way. They are using the term more as 'Alkalinity as CaCO3', the tendency of the water to resist pH drop due to CaCO3)

The pH of your mash is influenced by both the grain bill and the starting water alkalinity (dark grains have an acidifying effect so you can start with a higher base alkalinity in your mash water when brewing dark)

I can't overstate the value in having an accurate water report, and of carrying out regular alkalinity tests (Salifert kits are cheap and easy). Without this, your water treatment is flying blind.

So, the starting alkalinity of your water and the grain bill are the two main things that control mash pH.

I have used CRS to adjust water alkalinity. Here in Norfolk the starting alkalinity of the water as CaCO3 is 218mg/L, so for pale beers I am using c1.1ml/L to get it down to c20mg/L. For darker beers I use perhaps half that.

I do use calculators, but I am one of those nerds who like to know 'how' the additions and numbers work.

Sometimes I do all the sums with pen and paper, sometimes I use calculators, sometimes I just add in what experience tells me is the correct amount!

I would commend to you the several excellent threads started by @strange-steve on water treatment under the 'water' section of the forum. I suspect a post there would get a faster and clearer response than my ramblings.....

Best wishes

Martin
Hope this helps.

Many thanks. I certainly did struggle with "alkalinity"
The Severn Trent water report is not the best but I have bought a Salifert (GH & KH Test kit) I got two drops for each which after running adding Sulphate and Chloride from the ST report and running it through Kaiser Water Calculator through gave me a water profile of
Ca 10, Mg3, Na 6, Cl 11, SO4 31, HC03 43
according to Bru'n Water that gives an imbalance so perhaps I should payout for an initial water report to check my numbers initially.
Anyway I am assuming with such low alkalinity I would not need CRS?
I have read Steves post but need to read the whole thread really.
Thanks for your input

 

[cushyno]

Your numbers look good for a soft water profile. Calcium is a bit low so you'd benefit from adding calcium chloride and gypsum to bring up the overall calcium. Your ratio between sulphate and chloride is approx 3:1 which would suit hoppy styles. If you want a more balanced profile, add more calcium chloride to lower that ratio, even going down as low as 0.7:1 for really malty styles.

 

[MartinHaworth]

Many thanks. I certainly did struggle with "alkalinity"
The Severn Trent water report is not the best but I have bought a Salifert (GH & KH Test kit) I got two drops for each which after running adding Sulphate and Chloride from the ST report and running it through Kaiser Water Calculator through gave me a water profile of
Ca 10, Mg3, Na 6, Cl 11, SO4 31, HC03 43
according to Bru'n Water that gives an imbalance so perhaps I should payout for an initial water report to check my numbers initially.
Anyway I am assuming with such low alkalinity I would not need CRS?
I have read Steves post but need to read the whole thread really.
Thanks for your input

In short, yes.

With alkalinity at those levels you don't really need acids. Jus have a think about getting calcium up and balancing chloride and sulphate to style.

Cheers

Martin

 

[Galena]

1) The mash pH stabiliser sold is apparently only useful in incredibly limited situations - it's not really useful to homebrewers. I wouldn't use it.

Also you don't get your mash water to the correct pH, it's your entire mash including the grains that you get to the desired pH (5.4 is probably best general target)

2) CRS is a mix of acid salts to get the alkalinity of your liquor to the right level, you probably don't need to use it if your waters alkalinity is low, but that will depend on the grain used and any additional mineral salts you add, as things like gypsum also lower pH of the mash.

for example, I have soft and low alkalinity water, for a british pale ale I add quite a lot of gypsum and calcium chloride to it to get the amount of calcium and sulfate and chloride I want, this has the effect where I don't need to add any acid to the mash to get the right pH

But if I were to brew a low mineral pils with my water, I'd need to add a bit of acid to get the pH down. I tend to use lactic acid as it's useful for other things too.


Does that help?

Sorry, missed your post. OK so I will ignore pH stabiliser for now at least. My first AG recipe with my water profile and put through Kaiser and then Brewfather calculates 8g Gypsum, 5g CaCl and 2.19g for the total water.
I am intending to treat the total water volume before the mash.
Thanks for the help :)

 

[Galena]

In short, yes.

With alkalinity at those levels you don't really need acids. Jus have a think about getting calcium up and balancing chloride and sulphate to style.

Cheers

Martin

Cheers :)