PH Out of Control

[GZCider]

Just mixed two 20Liter batches of apple juice and their PH is off the chart. I am using the little color strips and it looks like I am in the 4+ range. As Far as I know I should be under 3.8 or something bad will happen.

Anyway, It is the evening time and I don't have sun light ( I read somewhere that I need to observe ph tabs in direct sunlight) So I just added CTablets and am going to wait for tomorrow to check again before I add the yeast.

If It is still the the 4+ range when I check tomorrow, should I add some Malic Acid? How much? Anything else...? :ugeek: Cheers

 

[Kirk]

Acidity is not quite the way round you seem to be expecting.
4 is less acidic then 3.8.
Water (distilled) is 7, neutral.
If I recall laboratory Hydrochloric acid is 2
Values greater then 7 are alkaline.

So if you are trying to get under 3.8 you are heading to a more acidic mixture.
Actually I would say 4 seems too high and would prefer 5 to 7 if anything.

 

[wezil]

The little strips aren't that precise, and if it's fermenting the co2 will be producing carbonic acid so throwing your readings out especially if you have hard water. Personally iv'e never tested for PH (don't see the need to complicate things). I'd let time do it's thing, and taste test when the ferment is finished and then adjust the acidity etc, if you think it needs it (which my guess is you won't)! Good luck :thumb:

 

[GZCider]

REALLY?

Yes, Sorry about the Acid PH thing.
My PH is still over 4.
I guess do nothing.

 

[GZCider]

PH is not that imporatant of a variable?

 

[tonyhibbett]

pH is important and the papers are not precise but are best read in good daylight, not artificial light. I use a digital meter. It may be worth buying some good commercial cider and compare the readings. The 'problem' with apples is that most of the acid is malic, which is why malolactic fermentation improves the flavour by converting this to lactic acid, which is softer on the palate.

 

[jonewer]

Acidity is not quite the way round you seem to be expecting.
4 is less acidic then 3.8.
Water (distilled) is 7, neutral.
If I recall laboratory Hydrochloric acid is 2
Values greater then 7 are alkaline.

So if you are trying to get under 3.8 you are heading to a more acidic mixture.
Actually I would say 4 seems too high and would prefer 5 to 7 if anything.

Eh?

Cider should be in the range 3.2 to 3.8 to protect it from nasties. If you have a pH of 5 to 7, not only will your cider be vulnerable, it will be insipid also.

 

[mabrungard]

If this cider was made with fresh juice that was not reconstituted with water, then the pH should naturally fall into an appropriate range. If this was made with concentrate and the tap water has high alkalinity, then its possible that there is too much alkalinity in the water to allow the cider pH to drop as desired.

Yes, pH strips do not work well in some cases. The paper strips are notorious for poor performance and reporting. They are not worth the paper they are made of.

The plastic ColorpHast strips are better, however they still have some issues. One interesting fact is that pH strips do not report very well or quickly when used in solutions with low ionic strength. Beer, wort, and juices have low ionic strength even though they have a high concentration of sugars and proteins. Sugars and proteins are not ionic. ColorpHast says that you have to leave their strips in the solution for 1 to 10 minutes in some cases to get a proper reading with their strips. Using a calibrated pH meter is the most accurate measurement method.

 

[wezil]

Hi if you boil the water you are going to use, this will remove the temporary hardness (see the scale in a kettle for an example) This will allow the liqour to lose some of it's buffering capabilitiy (it won't affect the ph tho) and should make adjustments easier. (But on the other hand generations of folks have made cider-cyser or cyder without any worrying about any of this)! I still think taste is the best guide (unless brewing for a competition that is) Ph meters are both expensive and take regular calibrating (I used to use one for my fish breeding water till I got fed up with all the faffing about)! Then of course you might fall into the 'oh' the ph is a fraction out, and keep adding and subtracting things to make it perfect and forget what's really important and fun about brewing!

 

[GZCider]

If this cider was made with fresh juice that was not reconstituted with water, then the pH should naturally fall into an appropriate range. If this was made with concentrate and the tap water has high alkalinity, then its possible that there is too much alkalinity in the water to allow the cider pH to drop as desired.

Actually I am using juice concentrate and reconstituting with commercially bottled water!
The vendor for concentrate seemed to have change their concentrate as the PH was quite lower in the last order.
Anyway I put a little malic acid in but didn't seem to change the PH that much. I started the batch on yeast last night. I don't think that the PH is much higher than four.

Anyway, what options for after/during fermentation. Keeping using malic acid?? Anything else can be done? I would like to be in a healthy <3.8 range

 

[Brewtrog]

Chuck in one of the usual brewing acids (malic, citric, tartaric) malic is probably the best, being the acid naturally in apples, and it'll undergo MLF if you have the bacteria for it in there.

 

[GZCider]

Can I do this a week later once it is fermented out.... Or is it better to add more malic before the fermentation. Like I said, I already added some Malic and didnt seem to make a difference to the PH.
What about some Lemon Juice?

 

[jonewer]

Cant help you with how much to add mate nor how best to measure the acidicity, but lactic acid is probably better than malic.

Malic acid is perceived as being much sharper than Lactic acid, so you can add more lactic without making it *taste* too sharp.

I'd lower the pH sooner rather than later to protect the brew

 

[GZCider]

Ok, All I have is a pack of Malic Powder and a bowl of lemons.. And Yes, I am trying to avoid the sharpness of too much Malic. Aiming for something sweet.

I think I have another day before I do something about it, the fermentation is just starting to show bubbles. no movement in the airlock yet.

 

[GZCider]

Anyone used lemon peels?

I know citric acid is not a favored option for flavor or lowering PH but
I was thinking of adding lemon peels in one 20L batch, and Malic powder in the other.

 

[GZCider]

Two 20Liter Fermenters

First Fermenter. Just squeezed about 6 lemons, and then threw in some peels floating on top. If Cider has a problem with citric acid, I will be able to tell you why first hand after this.
The only problem is that it didn't make a dent in the PH. I am hoping the Lemon Peels will soak in there.

Second Fermenter, I stopped being reluctant and added 2 large table spoons of malic. Finnaly can see I below 3.8 range.

Tell you how it turns out. :hat: