Old Beers and Brewing

[Wodster]

Hi,

Might be little of topic so let me know if I should start a new thread.

I recently found some old brewing logs in my local records office. I've just sorted out about 40 pages of a volume which covers the 1830s. I've attached an entry which has some interesting entries.

In the central columns I think I can see some info about the volumes of wort drawn off and the sugar levels in those and what I think is volumes of parti-gybe towards the bottom. Then right at the bottom some stuff about fermentation. I can't see anything about quantities or types of grain or hops though.

I have zero previous experience reading these old logs so if anyone can help decipher them that would be wonderful!

 

[EddtheBrew]

How Do Woodster,
Welcome to the forum mate;
I've just had a quick look at the record photo you popped up , at first glance it looks like an attenuation / fermentation record in Brewer's pounds per barrel of gravity , with the name of the brewer , yeast type and beer quality ,
Would you be able to let me know which brewery ? (DM if you'd like) , as its handwriting is pretty similar to another brewery's records that I've seen from around that era , nice details about the yeast though!!
Cheers
Edd

 

[Wodster]

ah up @EddtheBrew.

There are lots of records for X, Porter and Stout a few for XX. Often the X is parti-gyled with what looks like a beer called T which I assume is table beer. Also there are quite a number of records for a ale called X but the X is struck through all of which seem to come in under about 31 lbs/bbl, over that amount they're just plain X.....

Mike

 

[EddtheBrew]

Hi Mike,
I've just had another look and whoops , it appears they are brewing records , sorry !.
Not seen them like that before !, I'll have to have a look on a bigger screen tomorrow ,
Cheers
Edd

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

Could anyone give me a yeast to choose for a Marstons Pedigree? as i have a recipe off a forum member to try in a few weeks time.Also this ale has a distinct sulphur note to it,so what suggestions on water or additions would be greatly appreciated.Was thinking along the lines of WLP 026/023

Also whats your take on Barley syrup,invert sugar and Brewers Caramel?

 

[peebee]

Could anyone give me a yeast to choose for a Marstons Pedigree? as i have a recipe off a forum member to try in a few weeks time.Also this ale has a distinct sulphur note to it,so what suggestions on water or additions would be greatly appreciated.Was thinking along the lines of WLP 026/023

Also whats your take on Barley syrup,invert sugar and Brewers Caramel?

I tried getting a clone of Pedigree over the last couple of years. Yeast? That's not the stumbling block. Timing is. Many folk on this forum stick with the 2+2+2 method. I was getting a good bit of success, but the beer had only been in the cask 4-5 days, just 10 days after starting brew, and it was all over within the next three weeks. Follow the 2+2+2 method and its past it before starting. Large amounts of gypsum seemed to be key, but not to get the documented "qualities" of gypsum which came after the beer had past its moment (and that's how I learnt the documented qualities of gypsum, which are supposed to be "drying", can be translated to "sticking your tongue on a well used blackboard").

My conclusion was only make enough that can be drunk within a month and start drinking it pretty early on. This doesn't fit with my 40L minimum brewery so I don't try making it anymore. If you intend bottling or serving as keg - good luck (does anyone actually drink Pedigree from bottles or kegs and actually enjoys it?).

The right hops was also a key to success. I knew it wasn't Goldings and had thought it might have been "earthy" Fuggles. Apparently they use WGV (that information is pretty easy to find) with perhaps some Fuggles. I was using S-04 yeast for my trials.

Brewer's Caramel, invert sugar, barley syrup? Never touch the stuff. I was using 100% Pale Malt in my trials. (EDIT: Liar! There was 2% black malt for colour).


(EDIT: Water: I was using the "Pale Ale" profile in Bru'n Water. Quite mineralised which is quite unusual for Bru'n Water; included just over 300ppm sulphate, mainly as gypsum and a pain that was to dissolve).
(EDIT2: This thread is for "old beers". Pedigree is a new fangled "running beer" and what I've written emphasises that - Pedigree is for brewing fast and getting it to the Pubs fast and it is important to treat any Pedigree clone in such a way. You actually stand a better chance at emulating beers made from these old recipes).

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

The Burton recipe is as follows 10 gallon

12lb Pale Malt
6 gallons of water
2lb Barley syrup
2lb Invert sugar
2tsp brewers caramel
5oz Fuggles
2oz Goldings
2oz brown sugar
2 tsp irish moss

mash temp 60 deg c dough in
Raise temp to 66 deg c mash for 1 hour 3omins
Sparge to collect 8 gallons.
Boil for 1 hour 30
disolve barley syrup,caramel and sugar in hot water add during the boil.

I have done a few clones of Pedigree,and they are nothing like it at all,and never seen a recipe like this,so going to have a go.
And yes people here in Burton do drink Pedigree and Bass,and people come from all over to drink it straight from the barrel,the American visitors love the stuff.
The problem is,trying to replicate the method of how its fermented,as in the Union method of oak cask.

 

[BREWERS DROOP]

The Burton recipe is as follows 10 gallon

12lb Pale Malt
6 gallons of water
2lb Barley syrup
2lb Invert sugar
2tsp brewers caramel
5oz Fuggles
2oz Goldings
2oz brown sugar
2 tsp irish moss

mash temp 60 deg c dough in
Raise temp to 66 deg c mash for 1 hour 3omins
Sparge to collect 8 gallons.
Boil for 1 hour 30
disolve barley syrup,caramel and sugar in hot water add during the boil.

I have done a few clones of Pedigree,and they are nothing like it at all,and never seen a recipe like this,so going to have a go.
And yes people here in Burton do drink Pedigree and Bass,and people come from all over to drink it straight from the barrel,the American visitors love the stuff.
The problem is,trying to replicate the method of how its fermented,as in the Union method of oak cask.

Well the ale Pedigree is not a new Fangled ale,it was brewed in the late 1940s and went into full production in 1951,and fits in with Edds criteria of his dates of Old beers.

 

[peebee]

Well the ale Pedigree is not a new Fangled ale,...

It's not? I do need to "get with it" a bit more.

Kidding aside, "running beers" ("bitter" generally) became more popular after WW1/2, along with reduced strengths and outgoing milds.

The Burton recipe is as follows 10 gallon

12lb Pale Malt
6 gallons of water
2lb Barley syrup
2lb Invert sugar
2tsp brewers caramel
5oz Fuggles
2oz Goldings
2oz brown sugar
2 tsp irish moss

mash temp 60 deg c dough in
Raise temp to 66 deg c mash for 1 hour 3omins
Sparge to collect 8 gallons.
Boil for 1 hour 30
disolve barley syrup,caramel and sugar in hot water add during the boil.

I have done a few clones of Pedigree,and they are nothing like it at all,and never seen a recipe like this,so going to have a go.
And yes people here in Burton do drink Pedigree and Bass,and people come from all over to drink it straight from the barrel,the American visitors love the stuff.
The problem is,trying to replicate the method of how its fermented,as in the Union method of oak cask.

You can try it. Ignores everything I said but I'm used to that. "10 gallons" ... it'll be past it before half way through (still potentially good beer though). No WGV - that'll be a mistake I reckon, as will Goldings. All those sugars - great if you are the brewery's accountant; I'd skip them and just use malt, but I was mashing at 64-65C to thin the brew out a bit (like sugar does). "Burton Unions"? It was fun emulating them many years ago - but like with yeast there is far more to get right with Pedigree clones before dabbling with the detail (there was a period when Marsden only used unions for culturing yeast - about the same time as when Bass ripped all their unions out).

Is (quote) "yes people here in Burton do drink Pedigree" alluding to my comment "does anyone actually drink Pedigree from bottles or kegs"? What I meant is "not served from cask" with minimal carbonation. Also important when emulating Pedigree. I was weaned on Pedigree! I used to live not far away.

 

[EddtheBrew]

Could anyone give me a yeast to choose for a Marstons Pedigree? as i have a recipe off a forum member to try in a few weeks time.Also this ale has a distinct sulphur note to it,so what suggestions on water or additions would be greatly appreciated.Was thinking along the lines of WLP 026/023

Also whats your take on Barley syrup,invert sugar and Brewers Caramel?

Hi Brewer`s ,
Not used barley syrup before , so can`t really comment ; But on the use of sugars in brewing , IF THE ORIGINAL RECIPE CALLS FOR SUGARS , USE SUGARS , DON`T REPLACE WITH MALT , IT WILL ALTER THE BEER`S TASTE, AROMA AND , MOUTHFEEL !! (not to mention the abv difference !!)
Best Regards
Edd

 

[peebee]

Hi Brewer`s ,
Not used barley syrup before , so can`t really comment ; But on the use of sugars in brewing , IF THE ORIGINAL RECIPE CALLS FOR SUGARS , USE SUGARS , DON`T REPLACE WITH MALT , IT WILL ALTER THE BEER`S TASTE, AROMA AND , MOUTHFEEL !! (not to mention the abv difference !!)

Barley Syrup? It was malt extract without the inconvenience of actually mashing the malted grain. I think you can still get it (made for "other" purposes, but it differed depending what is to be achieved - light or dark, or somewhere in-between perhaps - like invert sugar you really need to know the grade or resulting flavour could be wildly out. In the 70-80s you could get it for home-brewing and it was pale - if I remember correctly).
ABV wouldn't be different because the other ingredients will be altered to make up the difference. And mashing at lower temperatures has a similar effect to diluting with sugars so mouthfeel should be about right.
But the taste and aroma WILL CHANGE. Most likely for the better but if trying to emulate a historical recipe it does most certainly matter. If the original is still available then trying to better it does makes sense.

 

[EddtheBrew]

Hi All ,
Here`s another historic recipe for you to have a go at , this time from Richard Clarke`s Brewery in Stockport / Reddish Vale , this one`s a nice little session bitter , from 1949 .
Cheers & Happy Mashing

Edd

 

[EddtheBrew]

Hi All ,
Here`s another for you lucky mashers to get stuck into !! , it`s a Bitter from the old Ellis Warde Webster brewery in Ormskirk , as brewed at the Dallam Lane Brewery of Peter Walker & Sons in 1936 , (I`ve also got two of their Milds from 1924 & 1929 as brewed @ Dallam Lane ; if anyone`s interested?)

Cheers & Happy Mashing

Edd

 

[EddtheBrew]

Hi All ,
Here`s the Boddington`s Bitter from 1918 .
It`s not the usual Bitter recipe which , was allways labelled as I.P in the brewing ledgers . I`m pretty sure this one was Boddington`s Government Ale beer , similar to what other breweries were making at this stage of the Great War .
Cheers & Happy Mashing

Edd

 

[EddtheBrew]

Hi All ,
Here`s another nice session beer for you to have a go at ; I`ts one of my personal favourites of the post 1945 recipies that I`ve done .
Hope you all enjoy it ,
Cheers & Happy Mashing

Edd

 

[dan125]

I've ordered up the ingredients for my Chevallier brew which I'm hoping to get going next weekend.
Hope you won't be too horrified but I'm going to use up some newer English hop varieties that I have in the freezer, but follow your hopping/IBU schedule.
I'm also thinking of adding approx 100g of de-husked roasted barley to take the colour up to approx 25 EBC.
I've gone for the Wyeast Thames Valley yeast which I've also never used before.
Looking forward to this one :Cheers:

 

[EddtheBrew]

I've ordered up the ingredients for my Chevallier brew which I'm hoping to get going next weekend.
Hope you won't be too horrified but I'm going to use up some newer English hop varieties that I have in the freezer, but follow your hopping/IBU schedule.
I'm also thinking of adding approx 100g of de-husked roasted barley to take the colour up to approx 25 EBC.
I've gone for the Wyeast Thames Valley yeast which I've also never used before.
Looking forward to this one :Cheers:

Hi Dan,
Which recipe are you doing ? , and could you let me know which hops you're substituting , or have available in the hop freezer ?
Depending on which recipe , I wouldn't bother with the colouring up , though if you're going to , pop me a pm and I'll forward my procedure for colour correction ( non sugars method)
Cheers, and Happy Mashing
Edd

 

[dan125]

Hi Edd
I'm not too worried about the colouring up - just thought it would make a bit of a change from recent brews (but will drop you a pm about this).
I was gonna go pretty much with the recipe you suggested, but with these hop subs:

28L Batch
7Kg Chevallier
0.1g dehusked roasted barley (maybe)
0.1kg acidulated malt (pH adjustment)
Mash @ 69C

29g First Gold (10.2%AA) @ 90 mins - 26IBUs
9g Olicana (8.3%AA) @ 60 mins - 6 IBUs
12g Ernest (6.2%AA) @ 60mins - 6 IBUs
11g Olicana (8.3%AA) @ 35 mins - 6 IBUs
4g Ernest (6.2%AA) @ steep post boil

I was thinking of going for a sulphate focused water profile with a fairly high total mineral content

 

[EddtheBrew]

Hi Edd
I'm not too worried about the colouring up - just thought it would make a bit of a change from recent brews (but will drop you a pm about this).
I was gonna go pretty much with the recipe you suggested, but with these hop subs:

28L Batch
7Kg Chevallier
0.1g dehusked roasted barley (maybe)
0.1kg acidulated malt (pH adjustment)
Mash @ 69C

29g First Gold (10.2%AA) @ 90 mins - 26IBUs
9g Olicana (8.3%AA) @ 60 mins - 6 IBUs
12g Ernest (6.2%AA) @ 60mins - 6 IBUs
11g Olicana (8.3%AA) @ 35 mins - 6 IBUs
4g Ernest (6.2%AA) @ steep post boil

I was thinking of going for a sulphate focused water profile with a fairly high total mineral content

Hi Dan,
There should be at least a two step mash , 1st @ 147 °F @ say 2.865l/Kg and 2nd @ 155-6°F @ say 1.075 L/Kg , then 1st Sparge @ 170°F @1.075L/Kg / 3rd Mash Heat @ 158°F , then 2nd @ 3.685 L/Kg @165°F.
As to a water profile, a Burton profile would be good , yeast strain seems OK , I'd have gone for a Burton strain (personally),
Let me know if I can be of any more help ,
Cheers
Edd

 

[dan125]

Thanks Edd - The Wyeast Thames Valley yeast is supposedly the same strain as Whitelabs Burton Ale yeast, so I was hoping this would suit.
Depsite the very New World flavour descriptors given to these hop varieties I have found them to have a distinctly earthy English character.
Although I do usually 'sparge' in a fashion with water at around 75C, doing a multi step mash with my BIAB set-up won't be easy. What would be the benefit of doing the first 2 stages over a single step that split the temp difference at say around 67C (152F)?