No Chill- the bad bits, what are they ?

[Frisp]

Part of my wee brewery design is working out how exactly Im gonna Brew in the space I have . Further down the line space etc wont be an issue as Ill have a brewing space within my yet to be built mancave.

For now im going down the minimalist route BIAB in a single polyprop electric boiler / hlt. and I was going to make an imersion chiller, but im very much being drawn toward No Chill.

Online ,and within this forum, there are many many advocates extoling the benefits of the process.

However im not hearing anything about the downsides of No Chill. What are the downsides, if any?

PS I have already worked out the add 20 mins to the hop timings in brewfather rule to avoid over bittering.

 

[Rwilts]

Apart from the contact time of the hops with the hot wort as you have already pointed out I don't think there are any negatives, your brew day gets extended into the next day. I have not really bothered to adjust hop schedule with my brews , just followed the standard recipes, I don't know if this has resulted in a slightly different flavour profile than intended but it's definitely been great beer.

 

[foxy]

Plenty in Australia do no chill with limited downsides, I used to worry about SMM breaking down to DMS as it slowly cools but what is left after the boil a good robust ferment takes care of. One of the guys in our club won the national comp with an Imperial Stout and he 'no chills'. He does put flavour additives to his stouts though so maybe masks any DMS.
There is another method for hopping I used to use, The Argon Method but time adjustments work just as well

 

[Agentgonzo]

What are the downsides, if any?

From what I've seen, the biggest downside is that you have to deal with keyboard warriors telling you you've doing it wrong

 

[Frisp]

i can only find two ewetoob vids where a brew had been split, half chilled fast and half No chilled .

The No chills seemed to come out darker and lower ABV. Would that be poor technique allowing for some oxidisation in the no chill.
Am I right or is there some other reason for the differences between the two samples?

Im planning to leave it in the boiler overnight and drop it straight into the fermenter, which Im hopeing by taking out the Cube stage, there is less risk of picking up oxygen.

 

[jof]

I have no problem with no chill with the following MO:
I stick to traditional ale styles (so no over hopped oxidation for me to worry about)
I use leaf hops (where possible) in a bag so they can be removed .
It only stays in the boiler for an hour after flameout before I run it to the FV while still hot. That allows drop in temp to go into plastic FV & scope for a hop stand if desired.

 

[foxy]

i can only find two ewetoob vids where a brew had been split, half chilled fast and half No chilled .

The No chills seemed to come out darker and lower ABV. Would that be poor technique allowing for some oxidisation in the no chill.
Am I right or is there some other reason for the differences between the two samples?

Im planning to leave it in the boiler overnight and drop it straight into the fermenter, which Im hopeing by taking out the Cube stage, there is less risk of picking up oxygen.

Using a cube there is never any oxygen getting in. If there was no one would do it. It has to be filled at 80C HDPE for cubes can't go any higher. There is HDPE which is fine for 100C but they don't make cubes from it. If you go on an Aussie brewing site you will see they keep the cubes for years before putting the contents into a fermenter. I used to use mine within a couple of days.
I cant see why the ABV would be lower? Darker, maybe slightly because of the time spent at a high temperature, remember worts may get cubed and the ambient temperature could be 40C plus so a long time cooling.

 

[Frisp]

I have no problem with no chill with the following MO:
I stick to traditional ale styles (so no over hopped oxidation for me to worry about)
I use leaf hops (where possible) in a bag so they can be removed .
It only stays in the boiler for an hour after flameout before I run it to the FV while still hot. That allows drop in temp to go into plastic FV & scope for a hop stand if desired.

Mine is a Chubby pressure fermenter and hot is bad in them aparently.

Point taken re the hops, im going to be brewing scottish beer and dark milds / stouts. so hoppy oxidisation isnt going to be a big issue for me either methinks

 

[The Baron]

One there is no way the ABV would be different from a split batch IMO.
Re the hops - take them out before transfer to the FV or Cube. I do a whirlpool in the kettle remove the hops then transfer to my FV for further cooling

 

[MashBag]

No issues here. Cubes are not necessary, you can (& I do) just pop the lid on and runaway after boil.

But YOU MUST REMOVE the hops.

 

[jof]

No issues here. Cubes are not necessary, you can (& I do) just pop the lid on and runaway after boil.

But YOU MUST REMOVE the hops.

Which is why it's easier with leaf hops in a bag, and not the pellets that turn to fine mush that escapes from a mesh bag

 

[Frisp]

Which is why it's easier with leaf hops in a bag, and not the pellets that turn to fine mush that escapes from a mesh bag

if you can find whole hops in the variety you want! a quick trawl and things have turned on their head in teh 12 years I have been off the boil. and its gone from almost all hops being leaf to almost all hops being pellet..

 

[Frisp]

Which is why it's easier with leaf hops in a bag, and not the pellets that turn to fine mush that escapes from a mesh bag

i thought calculating the hop additions with an extra 20 minutes would stop any issues. Or does that rule just apply when using a cube?

 

[foxy]

i thought calculating the hop additions with an extra 20 minutes would stop any issues. Or does that rule just apply when using a cube?

Both, as both are cooling slowly the hop's slow or stop isomerisation at 80C

 

[Frisp]

Both, as both are cooling slowly the hop's slow or stop isomerisation at 80C

Which is why it's easier with leaf hops in a bag, and not the pellets that turn to fine mush that escapes from a mesh bag

how much does bagging the hops affect the hopping level of a recipe?

 

[Sadfield]

From what I've seen, the biggest downside is that you have to deal with keyboard warriors telling you you've doing it wrong

Yet the OP can't find any evidence of this, hence the question about negatives.

This attitude makes the OP's question unanswerable by stifling any adult discussion about possible issues. There will be negatives, as brewing is a highly complex process that's been studied by scientists for centuries. Going beyond the binary thinking of homebrew forum thinking, of right or wrong, good or ruined.

 

[peebee]

How is anybody going to make a conclusion out of this mess? Two utterly different techniques are being discussed as if they are the same thing.

@Frisp: Decide which technique you are wanting advice with and tell the rest to shut the hell up!

In Blue corner, represented by @MashBag (#10), you have those just letting the wort cool naturally (in the boiler ... making sure you remove the hops ... or in the fermenter). Not really what is meant by "no-chill", but you can call it that if you must. Pitch the yeast as soon as cooled.

In the Red corner, represented, and described pretty well, by @foxy (#7). You are transferring "free of bugs" (as near as you can) into HDPE "cubes" (expelling all airspace in the process, there is no oxidation and no hops transferred). It is what I've been led to believe is "no-chill". @foxy states not to fill above 80C, but you'd have to be very slick to fill hotter than 90-95C and I've not heard of anyone having problems with that (just don't try to move very hot cubes as they lose all rigidity). Put in a fermenter and pitch the yeast when you're ready (some people leave for months, but that is surely playing with fire?).


Which is it?

 

[jof]

how much does bagging the hops affect the hopping level of a recipe?

The answer will come when you try it out.
But I will say you need quite a big bag as the hops swell up a lot.
I use one of the mesh veg bags you can buy from supermarket.

I also tie it off on a bit of string so it can't sink to the bottom & touch the heating element.

And there is nothing stopping you using more than 1 bag for hop Additions at different times - it's easier than fishing out the one bag & trying to add more to it while not burning your fingers or spilling the loose hops into the wort.

 

[foxy]

Well, the only reason I quoted 80C is that is regarded as the safe temperature to avoid the leaching of plasticisers. I cubed hotter than the recommended 80C, probably a tab over 90C. But storing an acidic food or beverage in HDPE also leaches plasticisers over time.
But you are right cubed wort overnight would eliminate any spilled tears over the chance of an infection taking hold overnight in the kettle.

how much does bagging the hops affect the hopping level of a recipe?

None, the IBU will remain the same. There is one advantage of using a bag that probably a lot of bag users don't take up is mash hopping where the isomerisation in the low temperature is not so harsh. Then you can retrieve the bag and chuck it in the boil!
Not to be confused with FWH.
What you will find though is the IBU scale is well off, even Glen Tinseth admits it is flawed so the only real way to get your IBUs where you want them is the Goldilocks method.
https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.c...periments-on-alpha-acid-utilization-and-ibus/

 

[MashBag]

From what I've seen, the biggest downside is that you have to deal with keyboard warriors telling you you've doing it wrong