NEIPA oxidation

[Braindead]

Great thread. I'm currently putting a closed system together which I'm hoping will improve things further.

I recently brewed one with London Fog (link below) that came out really well. Only problem is, I chilled the keg twice (for a few hours each time), and the haze has dropped out!!?! Anyone any tipd to keep it longer? I've read about increasing pectin (thru apples), and also DH at high krausen...
Anyone got a repeatable technique they use that works?

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/london-fog-yeast.75939/

I used apples once in an Omni Pollo Raspberry IPA and wasn't blown away.
Regarding dry hopping, last brew I dry hopped on day 2 and day 4.
Previously done 2 and 7.
But Id definitely do the 2 and 4 again

 

[b7ryn]

I used apples once in an Omni Pollo Raspberry IPA and wasn't blown away.
Regarding dry hopping, last brew I dry hopped on day 2 and day 4.
Previously done 2 and 7.
But Id definitely do the 2 and 4 again

So you think the idea of adding pectin didn't make any difference?
Buying pectin powder was going to be my next adjunct to add to improve haze :smile6:

 

[Braindead]

None at all.
Just get a bloody good yeast.
Vermont or 1318 and dry hop early for biofermentation

 

[dan125]

just one week from packaging here's the keg v bottle.
Both were pressure filled direct from the FS - the bottle with a beer gun, and I thought I had purged the keg really well, but the kegged version on the left is noticably browner, and I'm sure its a touch harsher.
So it would seem that;
a) even without any oats a neipa can oxidise
b) I need to purge my kegs better

 

[Hoddy]

just one week from packaging here's the keg v bottle.
Both were pressure filled direct from the FS - the bottle with a beer gun, and I thought I had purged the keg really well, but the kegged version on the left is noticably browner, and I'm sure its a touch harsher.
So it would seem that;
a) even without any oats a neipa can oxidise
b) I need to purge my kegs better
View attachment 12838

That’s amazing isn’t it. There’s me thinking I knew exactly how and why a NEIPA goes brown. FFS.... Dan. Now what???

I’m interested to understand what the different water profile that was used?

It will be 1 week for my latest NEIPA in keg now and it doesn’t look like it’s turning. Although I really did flush the hell out of everything. To the point I got an extra co2 canister in just in case.

I think I might have to do a few days time lapse pictures just to see what happens. To be fair it was over diluted by about 3-4 litres but I really like the basis of the recipe.

But I love the colour of @Braindead NEIPA. come on share with the group.




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[dan125]

That’s amazing isn’t it. There’s me thinking I knew exactly how and why a NEIPA goes brown. FFS.... Dan. Now what???

I’m interested to understand what the different water profile that was used?

It will be 1 week for my latest NEIPA in keg now and it doesn’t look like it’s turning. Although I really did flush the hell out of everything. To the point I got an extra co2 canister in just in case.

I think I might have to do a few days time lapse pictures just to see what happens. To be fair it was over diluted by about 3-4 litres but I really like the basis of the recipe.

But I love the colour of @Braindead NEIPA. come on share with the group.

Looking on the bright side - at least the beer gun is doing a good job of keeping the O2 out of the bottles

Now what??? - i'm gonna brew a really simple, standard NEIPA & see if I can do any better.
I think next time I'll try filling the keg to the brim with starsan & push the whole lot out with CO2 so there can't be any O2 in there.
Although I'm wondering if doing a normal purge, but with adding the CO2 in through the beer out post would help push the O2 out from the bottom better, rather than it just mixing in with the air inside???
Not sure if you were asking me about the water profile or Braindead, but I went for:
Alk 10
Calcium 100
Sulphate 78
Cloride 145
s/c ratio - 0.5

I won't use the CML US yeast again in this style, as despite using more hops than last time I think they are a bit muted compared to the London III yeast used last time.
Did you have any luck with the yeast harvesting? I fancy trying one of the Imperial yeasts next time but at nearly a tenner a pop it would be good to be able to get more than one brew out of it.

 

[dad_of_jon]

I won't use the CML US yeast again in this style, as despite using more hops than last time I think they are a bit muted compared to the London III yeast used last time.

That was my thinking behind a wheat beer yeast. I heard it mentioned somewhere that the yeast might stick to the hoppy compounds and thus reduce the flavour, So I thought I'd use a yeast with low flocculation meant for hazy beer that tastes ok.

 

[Braindead]

Do you want the water profile I used?
Weird, looks like mines oxidised a touch already, not happy.

But I have a foaming issue which Ill post in another thread

 

[dan125]

That was my thinking behind a wheat beer yeast. I heard it mentioned somewhere that the yeast might stick to the hoppy compounds and thus reduce the flavour, So I thought I'd use a yeast with low flocculation meant for hazy beer that tastes ok.

Interesting way of looking at it - I never aim to have any yeast in suspension, although I think you're right in that the yeast can absorb hop oils.
I'm not sure now if its that the CML yeast actually mutes the hop flavours or that the LondonIII/Vermont adds extra flavour that compliements the hops.

 

[Hoddy]

Do you want the water profile I used?
Weird, looks like mines oxidised a touch already, not happy.

But I have a foaming issue which Ill post in another thread

Yes please. I’m really trying to get explore water profiles and what affect they have on beers, and mapping that out against certain styles.

I’m going to test my second 4 litre filled keg tonight and see where that is at. I will also be interested to see where the first keg is at come next week as it wouldn’t have been poured from at all by then and was purged to within an inch of its life.

Luckily I’ve never had (touch wood) any foaming issues from my key and tap setup. I’m assuming this is a new issue on an existing system that was fine before?


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[Braindead]

Yeah its temperamental.
Calcium 100
Mag 9
Sodium 13
Chloride 120
Sulphate 120

 

[HopHead420]

A little piece of advice on kegging these beers... It is worth doing a full sanitiser purge of your keg, before then transferring the beer into the closed keg through the liquid dip tube. You have to fill the keg all the way to the brim with sanitiser, then put the lid on and push it all out with CO2. This is pretty much the only way to get a near perfect keg purge without using an insane amount of CO2, as a good gas purge takes about 11 full fills and full purges at 14psi, and that'll still only get you to 1% Oxygen... Which is still a lot more than a full liquid purge... Also, once filled with beer it is still then worth filling and purging the headspace five or six times with CO2 at 14psi.

 

[Ajhutch]

This seems to agree with Dan’s comments in the OP

http://brulosophy.com/2018/03/12/th...oning-on-new-england-ipa-exbeeriment-results/

 

[mr_bridger]

Been looking into darkening of NEIPA myself, and chatting with Adam from Baldy's brewery on youtube... Here's what i came up with as an additional cause for NEIPA's going brown. Especially bottle conditioned ones.


Here's how it went. ...

a bit of a brainwave theory. So, we dry hop and then crash chill the beer. For a keg, the beer is then racked to the keg, and pretty much stuck straight back in a chilled fridge to carbonate. The beer is always cold and stays nice and orange / fresh looking, A bottle conditioned beer has to be brought back up to fermentation temps to carbonate.

Now, that beer I spoke about, once bottled I didnt put it straight back in the fridge as I was posting it.

Maybe the warm temps causes the browning of the suspended hop matter? A bit like how most vegetal matter goes brown if left out. We refrigerate stuff to keep it fresh. Salad would be brown in a day or so at room temp, but in fridge lasts longer.

I might try and get two identical bottles off the keg, refrigerate one, and leave one at room temp and see what happens. Worth a go!

------

So, as I mentioned a few weeks ago on your YouTube video, I thought I'd do a quick test to see how temperature affects NEIPA's.

I CO2 purged the crap out of everything, lines, beer jumper, filled these two bottles with starsan completely, the bled it off (all over the floor) using more Co2. Filled both from the keg and then left one in the fridge, and the other I put in a cardboard tube in a cupboard in the kitchen. Probably sits about 15-18°.

Now they will both have had a small amount of light strike, the fridge one more than the cupboard, bit I think the result of that is reasonably conclusive?

Which makes me think raised temperatures for natural carbonation of NEIPA'S in bottles is also what causes darkening.

First pic Feb 22nd. Second pic Mar 7th. ~10days.


-----

So, it may not just be oxygen causing issues.

Ross.

 

[b7ryn]

Based on that I guess keeping kegs at the lower temperature is a bit of a balancing act, as keeping it at crashed temps of just above freezing will eventually lead to it clearing up (happened to me!) versus keeping it "chilled" to prevent the hazy matter from discolouring as quickly.

 

[dan125]

Great test @mr_bridger - did the chilled bottle also darkened very slightly? It's quite hard to tell from the pics. I'm wondering now if a tiny amount of O2 is enough to start the browning process and the higher temps accelerate it???
In my example above both the keg & bottles have been in the same fridge at the same temp.

 

[mr_bridger]

Great test @mr_bridger - did the chilled bottle also darkened very slightly? It's quite hard to tell from the pics. I'm wondering now if a tiny amount of O2 is enough to start the browning process and the higher temps accelerate it???
In my example above both the keg & bottles have been in the same fridge at the same temp.

It has very slightly darkened. No way near the warm one tho. I don't think an O2 was present in either tho. Due to the way I purged. (bottles and pipes all full of starsan, squeezed Evey last bubble out, the drive out the starsan wit Co2) always possible tho.

 

[AlDaviz]

I’m amateur !!
My NeIpa
Citra addition at 60mins 30g,15mins 30g and 40g at flameout to make 57ibu
Then dry hopped for 5 days before bottling with
Mandarina Bavaria 100g and wai-Iti 300g, 20L bottled.
Smells wonderful, first taste is fruity and hoppy, but then really bitter ??
Ideas in causes

 

[AlDaviz]

 

[malhal]

I’m amateur !!
My NeIpa
Citra addition at 60mins 30g,15mins 30g and 40g at flameout to make 57ibu
Then dry hopped for 5 days before bottling with
Mandarina Bavaria 100g and wai-Iti 300g, 20L bottled.
Smells wonderful, first taste is fruity and hoppy, but then really bitter ??
Ideas in causes

I had a problem with bitter aftertaste before I did water treatment. And solved it in either one or a combination of the following:

The lighter grain bill may not have been naturally acidifying the mash enough and the high Ph (7 or 8 of my water supply) resulted in bitter tannins being extracted from the grains. Now I treat the water and have a mash Ph of 5.4 measured with a meter.

I also now dechlorinate my water.

Switched to using sugar drops instead of priming solution (which also had chlorine).

The astringency only developed in the bottle so it might have also been a reaction with the air. Now I squeeze the air out which has prevent oxidization and now I have bright yellow fresh hoppy beer.

Lastly now I only ever dry hop with freshly opened hops. And I smell them first and if they don't smell good then I don't use them. Hops can oxidize too it seems.