NEIPA oxidation

[dan125]

I've been having a little experiment with my last batch of NEIPA and, as promised a while ago on the What Did You Brew Today thread, wanted to get back with some findings.

Its very unscientific I know but here goes:

It seems quite well know that NEIPAs suffer from oxidation and have a short shelf life.
I usually bottle condition the 6-8 pints from each batch that I can't fit in a corny and have noticed they never seem as good as the NEIPAs out of the keg - its always darker in colour and never seemd to quite have the same hop character.

Here are some piccies of 2 pints of the same batch of NEIPA, taken both with/without flash with some differnent backgrounds, to try to show the difference, which doesn't look as pronounced in the photos.
The beer was brewed on 14th Dec and packaging straight from FV via an auto syphon.

In each photo the pint on the left is from the corny, which was purged with CO2 before and after filling , and the pint on the right is from a bottle, filled with a bottling wand and bottle conditioned. The batch was packaged on the 28th Dec and the bottles had 2 weeks in the warm to carbonate while the corny sat in the fridge.
There's not a huge difference visually at this stage, but it is defo noticable, less than 3 weeks after packaging, and my (biased) opinion is that the kegged beer has a more intense hop aroma, and more rounded taste with sweeter finish, whereas the bottled version is more astringent/bitter.

I asked my 10 year old if either beer had a stronger smell than the other and she picked the kegged beer.

I tried purging some of the bottles with CO2 before and after filling using just with a gas line from the CO2 bottle and a valve , and will try comparng these in a week or so.

Its worth noting that even the kegged beer is noticbaly darker now than it was when I first tried it a few days after kegging

 

[Clint]

Interesting....what vols of co2 do you serve this at please? I was wondering would it work in a plastic pb if it was overcharged and allowed to vent the excess through the relief valve to expel any oxygen?

 

[dan125]

Interesting....what vols of co2 do you serve this at please? I was wondering would it work in a plastic pb if it was overcharged and allowed to vent the excess through the relief valve to expel any oxygen?

I was aiming for 2.2 vols by adding 3g dextrose to each bottle, and by using guess work combined with regular tasting for the keg.

Pressurising and venting through the relief valve (several times) is exactly what I've been doing to purge the cornys both before and after filling, and to me the most concerning thing with this is that the kegged beer has also shown the same decline, albeit to a lesser extent.
Makes me wonder to what extent all my beers are suffering or if its just NEIPAs that are affected so badly

 

[Ajhutch]

Good stuff Dan, would be interesting to see if a closed transfer from your Fermentasaurus is better. There must be something about the hop character in a NEIPA that makes it more susceptible than in other styles, I find it hard to believe that it is only the amount of hop aroma. Perhaps the oils created in the biotransformation are more susceptible to oxygen?

 

[dan125]

Good stuff Dan, would be interesting to see if a closed transfer from your Fermentasaurus is better. There must be something about the hop character in a NEIPA that makes it more susceptible than in other styles, I find it hard to believe that it is only the amount of hop aroma. Perhaps the oils created in the biotransformation are more susceptible to oxygen?

It was this issue with NEIPA versions 1,2 & 3 that made me look at the FS in the first place, but I haven't really noticed it in other styles, so I think you could be on to something.
No doubt V5 will be on the cards soon so I'll let you know

 

[Hoddy]

This is exactly what i am heading towards testing out very soon. Once i keg the rye IPA i have in the FS at the moment i was wondering what my next brew was going to be...... Looks like its going to have to be a NEIPA....... for research purposes only of course :think:

 

[dan125]

This is exactly what i am heading towards testing out very soon. Once i keg the rye IPA i have in the FS at the moment i was wondering what my next brew was going to be...... Looks like its going to have to be a NEIPA....... for research purposes only of course :think:

You know it makes sense :thumb:
I'm starting to wonder if I somehow manged to get air in my CO2 lines whilst faffing about with the FS/beergun:shrug: as the kegged beer has darkened so much - more likely I just need to do a better job of purging.

 

[BeerCat]

My NEIPA's seem to turn brown even though i am using extra pale and no crystal. Not sure why as my other beers dont.

 

[treebeard]

Following this one with interest as it's on my list. :thumb:

 

[dan125]

My NEIPA's seem to turn brown even though i am using extra pale and no crystal. Not sure why as my other beers dont.

The darkest grain in this beer is MO @ 6EBC (82%) !

The Brulosophy gang discuss this briefly in their latest podcast - they suggest it might be down to rapid oxidation of manganese which is apparently present in high amounts in oats.

http://brulosophy.com/podcast/

 

[Braindead]

I always use Golden Promise with my NEIPA and do a closed CO2 transfer to keg.
Doing a RYE NEIPA next

 

[Ajhutch]

I knew I’d heard the oat oxidation thing somewhere. I was talking about it on a thread regarding a stout recently.

 

[treebeard]

I stumbled upon this today, It's quite interesting. An experiment NEIPA grain to glass and keg vs bottle. There is also a point where an excellent example of "lost in translation" occurs at 27:45 minutes in. I laughed my arse off! :laugh:

 

[dan125]

There is also a point where an excellent example of "lost in translation" occurs at 27:45 minutes in. I laughed my arse off! :laugh:

Brilliant :laugh1::clap::laugh2: I doubt anyone likes it do they? :shock:

I'd seen that vid but don't think I watched to the end.

 

[dan125]

Here's part 2 of my little experiment.
We're still on the same batch of NEIPA but this time both pints in the pics are bottle conditioned - filled with the bottling wand from the FV, the only difference is that I purged the bottle on the left in each picture with CO2 before and after filling.
This was done before I got my beergun so I just cut into a gas line, using a tee, a valve and a bit a tubing to make a purging line.
Still totally biased I know but the purged beer has a stronger tropical fruity aroma and is defo smoother, and sweeter finishing, whereas the oxidised beer is rougher and more bitter.

 

[Ajhutch]

This is making me think that I shouldn't brew another NEIPA because I can't avoid oxygen pickup (bucket fermentation and no closed transfer etc). But I've got the grains and hops and a vial of Vermont yeast in the fridge! Sod it, my last one was still tasty even if it was a bit brown, I expect I'll brew it anyway.

 

[stigman]

This is making me think that I shouldn't brew another NEIPA because I can't avoid oxygen pickup (bucket fermentation and no closed transfer etc). But I've got the grains and hops and a vial of Vermont yeast in the fridge! Sod it, my last one was still tasty even if it was a bit brown, I expect I'll brew it anyway.

Get it brewed Ajhutch just smash it all before it has chance to oxidize.

 

[dan125]

This is making me think that I shouldn't brew another NEIPA because I can't avoid oxygen pickup (bucket fermentation and no closed transfer etc). But I've got the grains and hops and a vial of Vermont yeast in the fridge! Sod it, my last one was still tasty even if it was a bit brown, I expect I'll brew it anyway.

+1 get it brewed, try to minimise O2 pick up, and drink it quick.
The oat thing is interesting, as it does look like it has more manganese than barley, that can essentially go rusty in the beer when it oxidises.

Gives me an idea for a NEIPA recipe, but without any oats.
:

 

[Blinky]

I had the same issue a year ago with a Punk IPA clone - went into the bottles a nice golden colour, came out a muddy brown colour! I sent some samples off to the local Uni who have a brewing school (I so want to give up my job and apply for that degree course!) who looked at it and found nothing wrong - no infection etc. Never did get tot he bottom of it but I suspected oxidation although nothing had changed in my process.

 

[malhal]

Seems the air in the head-space of the bottle is the enemy (and/or auto-syphon valve bubbles) Anyone tried filling their bottles to the brim? Or using plastic bottles squeezed and filled to brim to allow CO2 fill the head-space?