Mash pH - how much is too much?

[ChilledGecko]

Hi all,
I've been having issues with my brews tasting too bitter, I don't think it is from hops (using recognised grain kits from MM & CML).
I think it could be astringency from the grain due to pH levels during mash in / sparging.

I use a litmus kit and usually have aim for reading of around 5.4 but I find it can be a bit of a lottery actually 'guessing' the reading.
I will purchase an electronic pH reader, I have avoided them up to now as upkeep is such a PITA.
Most brews seem to have a pH range of 5.2 - 5.6pH hence my target of 5.4pH.
I tend to hit this up to now, perhaps slightly high but never higher than 5.6pH without addition of acids.

I have been using RO water topped back up with minerals as prescribed by Brewfather for the recipes, my last brew I dropped that and stuck to tap water and half a campden tablet to remove chlorine products.
Though it was only a Tribute clone, not heavy on the hops anyway, no adverse bitterness / astringency has been detected.

So, I wany to actively acidify my mash to test my suspicion that I need to reduce astringency by products from the mash being too alkali.
Should I be looking at aiming more to the 5.2pH end of the band?
I don't want to alter the basic flavour, I just want the astringency to do one!

Also should I focus on the mash water, sparge water or both?

Any advice / pointers much appreciated.

Cheers

Kevin

 

[The Baron]

Aim for 5.2 if possible and do the sparge water as well with a acid addition is my advice
Re the PH meter a cheapy off Fleabay will be ok unless you want to spend a fortune on scientific more accurate ones which in real terms Home Brewers do not need.
I have had a £10 bought 5 years ago and it hardly needs calibrating and is always within 0.1 of the PH, most come with calibration powders you mix up and can be stored
Ps mine is one of the yellow ones

 

[Stu's Brews]

You are definitely thinking along the right lines for addressing issues with astringency.

I aim for 5.3 mash pH on the basis that even if I'm a touch over or under then I'm still within the 5.2 to 5.4 range.

For sparge water, I don't target a pH number. Instead I try and achieve an alkalinity of 0-20ppm CaCO3.

Couldn't say for certain which is more critical but I have read sources that suggest sparge water alkalinity is more critical as it can cause tannin extraction from the grains, which is a definite contributor to astringency.

 

[ChilledGecko]

Thanks guys,
I think I'll see how I go with just acidifying my mash & sparge.
I'll aim to skirt along the 5.2 border, once I have a more reliable ph meter.
As a separate step I'll have a look at Stu's sparge alkalinity.

If a few ml squirt of lactic acid is going to make the difference I'll be both happy it's solved the issue but annoyed it's a simple step that's caused so much of an problem until now!

Others don't seem to have a major issue with it but to me it's the difference between pouring it away or drinking it.

Edit:- ph meter arriving Saturday...

 

[Agentgonzo]

If you're not keen on the upkeep of a pH meter, have you tried pH strips with a narrow range?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/352520866903They have a narrow range (4.6-6.2). They're not perfect, but I would probably say that they are accurate to within 0.1/0.2 pH points (which is about as much as I'd trust cheap pH meters anyway).
I have only just started (after about 15 years) thinking about pH. Without water treatment, my mash pH was ~5.8 last brew (and I assume it's been like that for years beforehand). And the beer has always turned out great - I've never noticed any astringency. I'm playing around with mash pH now more as a novelty than "it must be within this range", but honestly I haven't seen much difference.

 

[JockyBrewer]

If you're not keen on the upkeep of a pH meter, have you tried pH strips with a narrow range?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/352520866903They have a narrow range (4.6-6.2). They're not perfect, but I would probably say that they are accurate to within 0.1/0.2 pH points (which is about as much as I'd trust cheap pH meters anyway).
I have only just started (after about 15 years) thinking about pH. Without water treatment, my mash pH was ~5.8 last brew (and I assume it's been like that for years beforehand). And the beer has always turned out great - I've never noticed any astringency. I'm playing around with mash pH now more as a novelty than "it must be within this range", but honestly I haven't seen much difference.

The problem I found with these narrow range ones are that the colours go from beige to brown, which can be quite difficult to tell apart, and more so when you dip it into a brown liquid.

I'd recommend getting a proper meter. And remember 5.1 - 5.4 is the range at mash temperature, which will usually be about 0.2 lower than after you cool it to room temperature. Some more interesting comment with more experience than me here: Is a pH above 5.4 ok? | Bru'n Water

I've just gone back to checking my mash pH through the process. I did a NEIPA the other week that has turned out great, but the mash pH was 5.65 (room temp). Going into the fermenter it was 5.45 and end of fermentation was 4.6.

 

[Agentgonzo]

The problem I found with these narrow range ones are that the colours go from beige to brown, which can be quite difficult to tell apart, and more so when you dip it into a brown liquid.

I've not had much of an issue. Shake off the brown liquid and it doesn't interefere with the results (though I've not done a stout with it, which might differ). Though it's not trivial I'll grant you. What works for me may not work for others.

 

[peebee]

Thanks guys, ...

Thanks for what? I haven't seen anyone address the first issue you raised, but to be fair they've all concentrated on what you said next 'cos that's a more "popular" subject to be babbling about!

How many times must I remind people? Bitterness is not Astringency! Astringency isn't even a taste. It's a sensation more akin to cutting your finger (no taste receptors involved at all). Now Bitterness, now that's a taste!

So, get your facts straight if you want answers that you won't be wasting your time with! I guess you might be talking about "bitterness" as I'm not confident many people even know what astringency is like, but they can blag on for hours about it 'cos it's connected in some way to "brewing water" which is by far the trendier subject (must be, 'cos they blag on enough about it across the "pond").



Sidenote:
I thought I'd look up a suitable link to explain "astringency". And I found, horrors of horrors, an American beer brewing one! It's generally good too (although treading a dodgy path with "... is as much a ..."; it should be "... is entirely a ..."). Maybe I should apologise for my earlier minor slight at Americans. The Oxford Companion to Beer Definition of astringency

 

[The Baron]

I can second that astringency is different to bitterness.
It's like sucking on a teabag and makes you pucker IMO.
I had it on 3 brews and I did not check my PH at that time but sorted it with RO water used to dilute my tap water until I got a PH meter and started using acidulated malt now its a thing of the past

 

[ChilledGecko]

Ok, for clarification...
I fully understand that bitterness != astringency. Though I suspect I'd be hard pushed to tell the difference.

I'm finding some of my beers taste more bitter to me than I'd expect from the recipe expected IBU.
As it is not noticed by some others, including my son who prefers his tea very strong, I took the bold step at attributing the perceived bitter taste as astringency from grain tannins. If not that, what?

To test the theory I want to reduce the pH as low as is still commensurate with the recipe.
For which I was asking advice, which I think I received an answer. Drop the pH and get a decent method of measuring said pH.
If it stops tasting so bitter to me I'm happy to chalk it up to pH management. If not back to the drawing board.

cheers all.

 

[The Baron]

System of eradication Chilled
If it is not that it may be that you are one of those people like me who has a lower tolerance to bitterness.
What I do is do not use bittering hops anymore and whirlpool any large amounts as you can get a load of bitterness/perceived from loading up with hops. A 80c or slightly less whirlpool will give plenty of flavour and reduce the extraction of perceived/bitterness.
Other ways are to cut down the dry hops and put more in the whirlpool as you get perceived/bitterness too which some calcs do not account for.
Some calculators do not allow for perceived IBU's in whirlpool and dry hop which then gives you a lower IBU figure to you than it really is perceived to be.
I use Brewers Friend and they have IBU calculations in Whirlpool and Dry hop so you get a more realistic figure so you can adjust your recipe to suit your taste better IMO.
Ps you may have to turn these options on in the settings.
Let me say I do not use this system on English ales and bitters just do a normal hop addition but miss out the bittering hop and use the hops I am using to get my IBU's

 

[ChilledGecko]

cheers @the baron
yeah, I'm sure I have a heightened sensitivity to bitterness.
I'm baffled when others are not able to taste what I'm experiencing.
My sense of smell (linked I believe) is way off kilter to others.

I just want a decent pint - is that too much to ask?

I'll admit to reducing bittering hops when I think it could be a risk.
What's a hobby if it's not for tinkering?

Thanks all

 

[MashBag]

I don't know how you brew, but consider tasting more frequently, it will tell you what's going on, when things happen, and enable you to manage decisions and recipes with a well trained pallette to get the taste you want, not what the numbers say it should be.

 

[MashBag]

If you are worried about sanitation, don't be. Just dip a clean tumbler in to sample.

 

[Agentgonzo]

yeah, I'm sure I have a heightened sensitivity to bitterness.

Do you have a similar experience with commercial beers? Do you find commercial IPAs to bitter? If so, it may just be your palette.

There seems to be a lot of "it's not bitterness, it's astringency" flying around these days. Sometimes if it quacks, it's just a duck

 

[peebee]

Ok, for clarification...

OK ... as penance for me going off on one (again):

Bear in mind what the article I linked says (it is more accurately an Oxford University publication but quoted by an American craft brewing organisation). You've already done to death the mash pH checking any way, but any astringency will more likely be washed (sparged) out. So, acidify your sparge water to about 5.5 (note "about", absolutely no need to go lower even if the point of zero alkalinity, the purpose of sparge acidification, will more accurately be nearer 5.0). Once satisfied your quest to eliminate this path for your woes, concentrate on bitterness.

25-30IBUs isn't unusual for many British beers (including "Bitter"!). Though if you are using popular American hops (recently, last 25 years, developed hops that is) the perceived bitterness of these is a tad milder (less harsh?) than some traditional British hops. IBUs isn't a wonderful way of describing bitterness, but then what is?

My next beer is planned at only 22 IBU (Wadworth 6X clone, once declared as an "English Bitter", now an "Amber Ale", quite possibly originally a "Mild Ale" bang on one hundred years ago when it came into being! It was a bit stronger alcohol-wise back then too).

 

[ChilledGecko]

@MashBag good point, I don’t tend to taste until it’s cooled and in the fermenter, OG taken then a taste. I’ll try earlier and more times.

@Agentgonzo i do find the odd commercial ‘bitter’ but on the whole most are no problem. I’d say I have a local process issue.

@peebee no worries. I’m not convinced the pH values I’m currently recording are true enough. Though I now have a digital meter on the way, so that should give me confidence that the value is ok.
I’m not clear about astringency being washed out. Do you mean into the wort?

My sparge water up to now has just been RO water with additives but no pH adjustment. So thinking about it the pH would be at pH7 or thereabouts depending on additions. That’s well off pH5.2 - 5.6.
Would that be where my error lies I wonder…

 

[stripeyjoe]

My sparge water up to now has just been RO water with additives but no pH adjustment. So thinking about it the pH would be at pH7 or thereabouts depending on additions. That’s well off pH5.2 - 5.6.

I do my salt/acid calls based on the total water volume, I add campden/salts/acid and heat up all the water to strike temp in my G40, transfer the sparge water to a separate vessel and then dough in. So far my pH has been =/- 0.1 of what Brewfather calculated. I do find lowering pH with a little acidulated malt to give more reliable predictions than using lactic.
For water I tend to use a mix of tap and RO (Spotless Water), proportions depending on required alkalinity/hardness.

I find some beers do come out more bitter than the IBU calc suggests, I've assumed it is to do with cooling and whirlpool/hopstand times increasing the effect of any boil hop additions.

 

[peebee]

,,, I’m not clear about astringency being washed out. ...

Sparged. I'm trying to be clear (to me?), but I'm having the opposite effect.

RO water contains virtually no alkalinity, so there is nothing to do to it. Alkalinity can be viewed a measure of how well water resists changes to pH, in any other matter it has nothing to do with pH.

 

[Gordon Horry]

If it is not that it may be that you are one of those people like me who has a lower tolerance to bitterness.
What I do is do not use bittering hops anymore and whirlpool any large amounts as you can get a load of bitterness/perceived from loading up with hops. A 80c or slightly less whirlpool will give plenty of flavour and reduce the extraction of perceived/bitterness.
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