make your own degassing pump

[stu9000]

Hi
Ive been harping on about degassing my red wines for a while.
It is still early days but I think this has been a major factor with my rather dissappointing results with red wine.
It tasted acid and cheap. I believe it is this slight fiz acid taste is excessive co2 dissolved in the liquid.
Instructions say to "knock" it out.
Making more of an effort to degass has made a huge difference.
However shaking DJs a few times a day for 3 days is not always a practical solution for me so Ive been looking at gadgets that might help speed up the removal of CO2.
This issue has been bugging me for a while and (blundering around in the dark at first) Ive tried quite a few methods.

I researched using
cheap hand pump wine bottle degasser - worked but was a bit labourious
proper vac/compressor pumps - e.g. 3CFM REFRIGERATION AIR CONDITIONING VACUM VACUUM PUMP - too expensive
(about £100 inc del on ebay )
food sealers - e.g. argos - not sure what strength vacuum I would get so didnt buy one(£30)
hand pumping brake bleader - worked quite well but still a little underpowered and slow.
whisk device attached to drill e.g. wine wip - I have bought quite a nice 5L DJ one of these and it is quite effective IF I take the time to sterilise and use it (which I was struggling to do)
Bike pump (with the one way valve drilled out and the valve flipped so it sucked) - bought cheap argos one and it didnt work at all well, not enough suction (a better pump would have made this a more effective solution Im guessing)
Pouring from bucket to bucket - actually quite effective but not sure about potential infection and still a job that, if not laborious, means I have to pop out to do it regularly.

Doing any of these things is far more effective if the wine is at 24 degrees!
Basically I wanted a quick way to degass really well, preferably in one or two shots.
This YouTube clip shows what looks like very effective degassing using a medical vacuum pump.
I decided I was prepared to spend up to about £100 on this and started hunting around.

Vac pumps are heavy and the best ebay deals were "pick up only", and always too far away!
I nearly bought an old fridge to rip out the compressor and make a vac pump. But Im fairly time poor at the mo and I wasnt keen on all that oil. Reading around seemed to suggest that a residential unit might not pull quite as good a vacuum as an industrial one. Tempting though, if youve got the time to play.

A massive guess is that my brake bleeder pulls about -20"hg vacuum.
Ideally I wanted -25"hg which ruled out cheap electronics type pumps.

So what ive bought is a beefier set of 3 12v vac pumps that link in series to give a claimed -28"hg vacuum.
Ive also bought a gauge, a few taps and connectors and some braided hose.

Im still waiting on a couple of bits but Ill let you know how it goes.

I had a good look around on the web and although the 3cfm refridgeration vac pump was a really tempting "buy your way out" solution I guess I just wanted to build something! Soon Ill be able to say whether it was a good move or a wild goose chase!

 

[bobsbeer]

Good luck with your project. It will be interesting to see if it works.

 

[evanvine]

Are you making the Red wine from your own grapes?

 

[Colonel Porter]

This might not be very 'practical' but you could generate the sort of vacuum you are after in a couple of ways;

1) Connect the DJ to the inlet manifold of your car! (assuming its petrol)

2) Some diesels used a small vacuum pump (Vauxhalls mainly I think) attached to the back of the alternator, its easy to take off and because it has a rotary drive you could use a power drill to operate it - check out e-bay?? Diesels don't create the same vacuum as a petrol engine and need this vacuum pump to supply the brake servo with enough suck to assist the brakes.

There are numerous variations on this theme and not all of them have a rotary action - some operate from a cam on the camshaft.

Col P.

 

[stu9000]

Im making wine using Kenridge and Beaverdale kits at the moment.

The car vac idea is interesting. there is a fair few on ebay but I didnt know enough about them and I assumed the vac pressure would not be high enough.

The bits havent arrived yet. Grr!

 

[tonyhibbett]

This works fine every time for 20 litre batches:
Using a half inch bore syphon, rack the must in 5 gallon fermenter onto the stabilising powder in a second 5 gallon container, with as much splashing as possible. Add finings and pour the whole lot directly into the cleaned original container with as much vigour as possible, creating a huge head of foam.
No shaking, stirring or pumps required and no risk of infection if basic hygene is observed.

 

[The Goatreich]

What's the best way to apply these principles to wine in demijohns? Currently I just give the jar a few token shakes as I thought degassing mainly affected the clearing process, but I didn't realise it can affect taste too. Would it be good practise to rack off into a 5 gallon vessel, splash around, shake, rattle, roll and then back into a demijohn for clearing? Surely the oxygen introduced during this procedure could be a problem?

 

[stu9000]

Inconclsive results!
Unfortunately my vac guage arrived having been knocked out of calibration so i cant give you a reading.

The pumps are pulling a vacuum but im not getting masses of foam (unless i shake the dj vigourously).
Maybe I have already degassed a lot in the FV (using a whisk and drill).
Maybe there are leaks at connections although Ive tightened it all up with jubilee clips.
Maybe I am getting -28"hg vac pressure and its not enough, although thats a fairly high vacuum.

Im starting to feel like I should have bought the 3cfm pump for an extra 20 quid or so, but that is rated to about the same vac pressure.

Perhaps Im getting too obsessed.
How can I tell that I have done enough.
Pouring from bucket to bucket, shaking etc. all do a pretty good job up to a point.
But racking it to DJ and vigourous shaking always seems to get more foam.
Ive read about the "puff test" where you put a sample into a hydrometer jar, shake with your hand over the top, then take your hand off listening for a "puff" sound as the gas escapes. no puff = no gas.

The guage is getting sent back. When a new one arrives Ill know more.

 

[bobsbeer]

Perhaps Im getting too obsessed.

Yup A good shake does it for me. :

 

[oldstout]

Perhaps Im getting too obsessed.

Yup A good shake does it for me. :

+1

:wha: :wha:

 

[tonyhibbett]

Put bung in DJ and shake. Release gas and repaeat until no puff. The cheapest device I have found to measure co2 was from an aquatic centre, but not really practical for wine.Out of interest, I tried it in a finished white wine, however, and it registered >3 mg. A digital probe meter is fine, but way too expensive.

 

[Mr.Everready]

when making large kits I use one of these

in one of these

Easiest way Ive found, and you dont get out of puff

 

[alanwh]

I thought of making a vacuum pump some time ago.
My idea was to pop a 12V tyre inflator (I have a spare one) into one of those stainless flour containers with the lever top lids with the rubber seals (saw some in Morrisons recently) drill two holes in the top and screw in two brass pipe connectors. insulate one of the connectors from the stainless case with rubber seals so you can double that as the +tve electrical feed to the compressor and the uninsualted one at the -tve. Connect the output tube to one (the one that blows up the tyre) and let that vent to the outside. The other pipe connector should in theory be able to produce a good vacuum. I did worry however that I would have a right problem getting a tube that wouldn't collapse at the vacuum needed to draw off the gas and creating a sturdy enough seal on the FV. I could see it being a bit of a frustrating battle keeping a vacuum for the length of time needed to draw off the dissolved gas so I didn't bother and so I stick to sloshing the FV with the airlock on :)

 

[hedgerow pete]

just out of intrest what is the pressure burst rate of a demi john, or wine container as impossed on say the implosion rate of the said container, 28hg is starting to get quite serious

 

[tonyhibbett]

Is that a paint stirrer? Great idea!

 

[ricardo]

Flippin 'eck talk about making something simple complicated !!!!!
Get the whisk attachment from the wifes mixer sterilise it bung it in a cordless drill & wass the wine up 2 times a day over 2 or 3 days.
Why get so complicated ???????
:wha: :wha:

 

[tonyhibbett]

Having neither ,nor mixing bowl attachment long enough, nor even a cordless drill which can hold a charge for more than a day, the acquisition of such resources could prove to be far from simple!
However, I do have a freeloading female who specialises in cremating things on the hob, 3 corded drills and have just ordered a paint mixer attatchment for £3, so not really as difficult as first appeared, so long as she can be relied upon to be when the delivery arrives!

 

[The Goatreich]

Plus, how do you get a whisk head inside a demijohn?

I'm never ever sure how much to degas, as it seems to release gas no matter how much I shake. I racked a WOW on the weekend and shook it several times vigorously over a period of several hours, even at the end of that it was still releasing bubbles after shaking.

 

[tonyhibbett]

I think the principle applies to a bin, rather than DJ, but the depth issue is taken care of with the paint mixer. I do accept the point that blokes do get carried away with tools, techniques and systems, when simplicity is too easily overlooked.
You can shake it till you are blue in the face and end up putting gas back in, the law of diminishing returns, or the one about the frog jumping half as far each time never crossing the road. 4 good shakes, releasing the gas each time is enough.

 

[stu9000]

IT WORKS!

Ok, to answer some of the previous posts.
I have a whisking device attached to a drill. It can fit in a dj cos the handles fold up as you push it down the neck. This definitely works and yes I probably could stop there. But where is the fun in that?
For bigger 30 bottle batches I considered getting a paint mixer but i was seduced by youtube into building my own contraption.
I considered the idea of putting a tyre inflator into an air tight "biscuit tin" type container. Liked the idea. But reading around it seemed that it would probably break fairly quickly. Maybe not though.

The pump parts I ordered can be found easily on Ebay by searching for "vacuum pump". £80 for a 3 stage pump was a bit steeper than Id hoped but I was too busy to drive miles to buy some of the ancient (but probably bullet proof) pumps.

It does work.
In the video below I had already tried degassing the wine with a drill and whisk and by shaking. Perhaps not multiple times over several days but at least a couple of times.
You can see that it is pulling out significant amounts of CO2.
http://youtu.be/FgB-H7bRGl0

Im getting -26"HG.

Regarding imploding DJs! urgh that would be messy but as long as the DJ is full to the neck I dont think there is a serious risk.

A half hour pumping cycle seems to have done the trick pretty effectively and Im sure I would have had to shake or whisk a whole bunch of times to get the same results.
Temperature is important. 24 degrees c is ideal. Less than 22 degrees c and nature is against you.

At £80 I could probably have stretched another £20 and got something semi pro that engineers use on fridges etc. but they use oil. May not have been a problem but this seems cleaner.

Some people seem not to consider degassing important but it has had a MAJOR impact on the taste of my red wines! Breakthrough! I love it when a plan comes together.