Lagering question

[bill_face]

Hello all,

Just wondering about how best to lager a Pilsner brew i'm making at the moment.

The only vessels I have apart from my fermenter are glass demijohns, and some brew buckets that don't seal.

Last time I was a bit shy of 10 litres so I racked to two 5 litre demijohns and topped up with some Corona. I thought this was a great solution as i presumed the bubbles in the corona would push any air out of the top of the demijohns. I put airlocks on and all seemed to turn out OK.

This time I've got 11 litres to play with. I've also since realised that when I lower the temperatures at the beginning of lagering I'm going to get some suckback, so I'm thinking of using stoppers rather than airlocks. Is this a better idea?

I'm unsure what the best method of purging air from the top of the demijohn is. If I just aim for practically zero headspace can I not worry about it?

Thanks in advance

Phil

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I’ve never sure whether to lager in a 2FV or demijohn or after bottling/kegging. Opinions please.

 

[DuncR]

Bill,
Leaving no headspace could end in tears once the fermentation starts, the gas and foam needs to go somewhere.
With airlocks in place the CO2 produced should purge out most of the oxygen (hopefully)

 

[bill_face]

Fermentation

Bill,
Leaving no headspace could end in tears once the fermentation starts, the gas and foam needs to go somewhere.
With airlocks in place the CO2 produced should purge out most of the oxygen (hopefully)

Fermentation has finished by this point

 

[Leon103]

I would say lager in bottles. Just don't add corona .

 

[aamcle]

Bottle it then lager it, it's not the ideal way to do it but it fits your cirumstances.
-1°C if you can and you will just need a week.
aamcle

 

[bill_face]

I decided lagering in the bottle was to simple for my convoluted mind. And I'm too cheap to buy kegs etc. In case its any use to anyone I came up with the following:

Made a in/out pipe connection in a 5litre water bottle cap. Connected from fermenter to 5 litre bottle, and out to airlock. So I'm purging the 5 litre bottle with CO2 from fermentation. After a day or so will cap the bottle and replace with another bottle. So i will have two bottles full of CO2 which i will fill with the beer to be lagered.

See the pic.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I was going to start another thread but figured I also have a lagering question, so will add it to this one.

Basically, my question is - do you have a constant supply of gas on your lagers when lagering them?

The reason I ask is, I have noticed a couple of things about this.

About a year ago (or maybe 2 I'm losing track) I made a really nice vienna lager. It was ready to drink at 4 weeks from brewday believe it or not and was crystal clear (I did use finings). I didn't have constant gas on it though (just the initial headspace), and it was sat at perhaps 10-12 degrees in my downstairs toilet with the finings in, for about a week to clear as much as it could, before I put the gas bottle on it. Will insert a picture if I can find one.

I had the idea at the time (from my wine-making) that if there is fizz within the beer, it will clear much slower, so I delayed adding the gas until I saw some clarity. This theory seemed to work, and also I believe that because the beer was sat at warmer than normal temperatures that it matured much faster (it also degraded quite quickly after this). Just loss of some flavour, not rancid or anything like that. Made me wonder if it's a good idea to do it again, or am I just inviting beer that will go off quicker?

Has anyone done similar? Do you have any theories, thoughts or suggestions on this?

 

[DuncR]

I was going to start another thread but figured I also have a lagering question, so will add it to this one.

Basically, my question is - do you have a constant supply of gas on your lagers when lagering them?


The reason I ask is, I have noticed a couple of things about this.

About a year ago (or maybe 2 I'm losing track) I made a really nice vienna lager. It was ready to drink at 4 weeks from brewday believe it or not and was crystal clear (I did use finings). I didn't have constant gas on it though (just the initial headspace), and it was sat at perhaps 10-12 degrees in my downstairs toilet with the finings in, for about a week to clear as much as it could, before I put the gas bottle on it. Will insert a picture if I can find one.

View attachment 83412

I had the idea at the time (from my wine-making) that if there is fizz within the beer, it will clear much slower, so I delayed adding the gas until I saw some clarity. This theory seemed to work, and also I believe that because the beer was sat at warmer than normal temperatures that it matured much faster (it also degraded quite quickly after this). Just loss of some flavour, not rancid or anything like that. Made me wonder if it's a good idea to do it again, or am I just inviting beer that will go off quicker?

Has anyone done similar? Do you have any theories, thoughts or suggestions on this?

Tess,
Not sure if this answers the question, but…
I ferment in a brewing bucket with an air lock and when going into the lagering phase I replace the air lock with gizmo as per the photo, filling the bag with CO2. Results ok to date including my last two Vienna lagers.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Tess,
Not sure if this answers the question, but…
I ferment in a brewing bucket with an air lock and when going into the lagering phase I replace the air lock with gizmo as per the photo, filling the bag with CO2. Results ok to date including my last two Vienna lagers.View attachment 83413

So that's one tick for no constant gas supply on when lagering then

Actually, should probably ask what it does before I assume that lol

 

[Pennine]

I leave gas on, or actually just naturally get the carbonation with a spunding valve. I figure why not carbonate and lager at the same time. With enough time cold lagering most of the time they drop clear.

 

[DuncR]

So that's one tick for no constant gas supply on when lagering then

Actually, should probably ask what it does before I assume that lol

LOL, good call, perhaps I should have explained.
It ensures a blanket of CO2 is pulled in as the temperature drops but doesn’t provide any carbonation. That said, I’ve seen a number of YouTube videos showing how the lagering process can be speeded up by fermenting under pressure although never tried it myself (yet)

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

LOL, good call, perhaps I should have explained.
It ensures a blanket of CO2 is pulled in as the temperature drops but doesn’t provide any carbonation. That said, I’ve seen a number of YouTube videos showing how the lagering process can be speeded up by fermenting under pressure although never tried it myself (yet)

I do all mine under pressure but not for the reason of partially carbonating it - mostly to help with the cleanliness of the flavour. I don't think it carbonates properly at those temperatures anyway to be honest. If you want to keep the carbonation you've gained, you have to keep both your vessels at the same pressure when you transfer. It's a pain in the bum.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Once I have completed my diacetyl rest I lager in the FV for as long as possible at -1. That time is variable but last time was a couple of weeks I think.


Then I transfer to keg, put the gas on and it goes in the fridge. Another week or two at least until properly carbed. My assumption is that that time in the keg and tbh, up until the keg is done, it is still "lagering".

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

You see I'm not sure - when they used to lager in caves they didn't have gas on them then lol

I just think it will drop clear quicker without bubbles as an obstacle. Hope you know what I'm getting at.

Just didn't want to make a mistake and leave it too long without gas, and ruin it.

I'm seeing from the answers that everyone has totally different methods.

 

[Caramel Ox]

It doesn’t have bubbles though when it is under pressure- the co2 is dissolved and only forms bubbles when pressure is released. Presumably carbonation changes the ph though so it could impact chemistry.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

the co2 is dissolved and only forms bubbles when pressure is released

Being an ***** I didn't think of that.

So you reckon the liquid is relatively 'flat' to allow the yeast to drop out freely?

Is it beer o'clock yet?

 

[Caramel Ox]

Unfortunately already at the limit of my experience! I think it will make no difference except for the practicality of having a gas supply available.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Haven't things moved on yet and the need to lager a lager been debunked? I've seen alot of back to back grain to glass experiments recently saying that after a couple of weeks or so there is no further benefit to large ring any longer - there is certainly no point or benefit to doing it for the usual 6 weeks or more than people seem to do. I'd normally keep an ale in the fermenter for a couple of weeks after fermentation anyway so no reason why a lager should take longer than an ale these days, so if this is the case just dump trub if you can and lager in the fermenter for a week or ten days?

Anyone done any back to backs to see if this is the case?

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I think it depends on the ingredients @hoppyscotty

I got a Vienna lager ready once in 4 weeks and it was fantastic - however just now I'm lagering a Festbier and having followed a trusted recipe, the Munich is/was a little harsh. Only now being around 7 weeks old it's starting to smooth out.