Lager yeast starter help please

[Dave1970]

Last time I did a lager I used 2 packs of dry yeast (W34/70)

This time I've got a vial of WLP830.

I know pitching rate's important for lager so had a look at MrMalty (using 1054 OG, 7.39 US Galls volume)

It's telling me I need 2 vials in a 3.2 litre starter :shock:

This isn't going to happen because I only have 1 vial, and only have a 2 litre conical flask....any way around this?

What would happen if I pitched the vial into 1.8 litres (giving it some head room), gave it a week, put it in the fridge to clear, drained of the cleared wort then added another 1.8 litres of fresh wort?

 

[pittsy]

every little helps with lager yeast , i make a 500ml starter with 50g of dme and stir plate just to get the vial into 100% viable ( a few months off from fresh can reduce yeast % by loads ) then as long as you times by 5 ish you can increase . So now use 2 litre and 200g of dme with your 500ml plus vial and this will make enough yeast for a 12c lager of 23l batch . (stir plate is required otherwise double the starter ).

 

[Good Ed]

Dave, you need ~460 bn cells according to Mr Malty, doing what you propose will get you about 300 bn

Do you have a 5L demijohn, or can you get one, it makes things easy, but then I don't use a stir plate, I just swill it around as often as I can

For lagers, and I've used WLP830 a good few times and I really like it, I start 1 vial (~100bn cells) in a 2L starter which gives me ~200bn cells, I then step that up with a 4.5L starter to give me somewhere around 430bn cells

try and pitch cold at say 7C and ferment at 10C

 

[Dave1970]

I have plenty of DJ's, not sure if they work on my stir plate though, the curved bottom might not work, I'll give it a try with water

 

[Good Ed]

sorry Dave, if you are using a stir plate, then what you are proposing will probably get you enough yeast

 

[brewtim]

You could try the Drauflassen technique..........

Drauflassen thread

 

[Dave1970]

Thanks Ed, that's great...I tried a DJ, and it does work on the stir plate, but the stirbar rattles about a lot, it's a lot quieter in the flat bottomed conical flask.

So how much does the temperature matter for the starter? I could put it in the fermenting fridge in the garage and control it, but then it's hard to keep an eye on. I usually do starters on the windowsill in the utility room which is at about 18C, would that be ok?

Interesting Brewtim...I can see that working for a bigger brew, not sure it's worth it for 28 litres? Will give it a bit of thought while the first starter's doing it's thing - I probably won't be doing the brew until the school half term in 2 weeks time so I have plenty of time to step up starters

 

[pittsy]

You either want to keep the starter at 12c (or ferment temp ) throughout the process and can choose if you pitch the lot or decant or do starter at 18c but will need to decant only .
If you have the time i would do it at 12c and decant .

 

[Aleman]

You either want to keep the starter at 12c (or ferment temp ) throughout the process and can choose if you pitch the lot or decant or do starter at 18c but will need to decant only .
If you have the time i would do it at 12c and decant .

You are making yeast not beer!

Keep the starter at room temperature, once fermented out, chill it, decant off the liquid , pitch the yeast.

 

[Good Ed]

Aleman beat me to it :thumb: don't forget that making a starter is just propagating the yeast cells, you are not making beer. To quote from the Yeast book "A good rule of thumb is to keep starters between 18C and 24C. Some brewers like to keep lager yeast starters a few degrees cooler and ale yeasts a few degrees warmer, but a temperature around 22C strikes a good balance of health and efficient propagation of both lager and ale yeasts."

I just do mine by the radiator, but not too close , also I believe the stir plate will add some heat

 

[pittsy]

I hear you , and respect your views . I have also read many times about how some brewers (Gordan Strong for 1 ) do as i mentioned , he decants though as i do . :|

 

[Dave1970]

thanks for the help, informative as always :hat:

So making the starter at 18C will make the starter taste dodgy but that doesn't matter because I'll decant and it won't harm the yeast, infact it'll help it to multiply

Starter on tonight then, and down to the fish shop for some RO water to make my Leicester tap ok for lager

 

[Aleman]

I hear you , and respect your views . I have also read many times about how some brewers (Gordan Strong for 1 ) do as i mentioned , he decants though as i do . :|

One thing I found out about Mr Strong is that his Ninkasi Awards at the US NHC (all three of them) have been for his Meads . . . Not beers . . . .

If my starter wort was exactly the same as the beer I was brewing I would grow the starter at 18-20C and then pitch the lot into the main batch at the correct fermentation temperature. . . . The main fermentation would them be vigorous enough to clean up after the starter fermentation. . . . This is the method I use when I make my 15L starters for my 100L batches.

If I am making a starter work from DME , then I crash chill it and decant the supernatant, pitching the slurry.

 

[Aleman]

Starter on tonight then, and down to the fish shop for some RO water to make my Leicester tap ok for lager

Don't rob it of too much calcium . . . If you have any calcium chloride consider adding a tsp to the mash for each 5 gallons of mash water . . . If your mash water is less than 5 gallons, use a full tsp anyway.

 

[Dave1970]

Don't rob it of too much calcium . . . If you have any calcium chloride consider adding a tsp to the mash for each 5 gallons of mash water . . . If your mash water is less than 5 gallons, use a full tsp anyway.

Last time I did 13 litres of Leicester tap and 25 of RO water - the result tasted (at least to me and my mates!) spot on.

I've not got a full water report (keep meaning to send a sample to Murphys and get a proper breakdown) and haven't really got into water treatment yet

What I do know from Severn Trent is

Calcium (hardness)- Mean 203 mg/l
Magnesium (hardness)- Mean 58.7 mg/l
Sodium-Mean 24.4 mg/l
Sulphate- Mean 100.929 mg/l
Chloride- Mean 40.7 mg/l

I don't have calcium chloride but I can easily get some before I do this brew - what does the calcium effect?

 

[Aleman]

I don't have calcium chloride but I can easily get some before I do this brew - what does the calcium effect?

If we assume that you will reduce those figures by about 2.5 times. the important thing is that the sulphate to chloride ratio will still be unaffected, and biased towards sulphate which accentuates hop bitterness . . . Ideally you need more chloride to bring the malt profile forward, hence adding calcium chloride . . . Adding the calcium to bring the levels up to around 100ppm will apart from getting the mash pH in the right place, aid in hot break formation, good fermentation, good flocculation, flavour stability, haze proofing . . . and others.

You don't want to add gypsum as you would be pushing the sulphate:chloride ratio even further the wrong way, especially if you are making a hoppy bohemian pilsner where the high hopping rate just become harsh and nasty in a sulphate liquor.

 

[Dave1970]

So does the one teaspoon you mentioned earlier still stand?

 

[Aleman]

So does the one teaspoon you mentioned earlier still stand?

:thumb:

 

[Dave1970]

Thanks Aleman, great advice as always

Would this be ok?

 

[Aleman]

Thanks Aleman, great advice as always

Would this be ok?

Yes looks fine, keep it double bagged and somewhere dry, otherwise you will come back to a bag of calcium chloride liquid