Lager Questions

[calumscott]

Next Sunday is Lager Day. Well, it is for me anyhow.

I'm doing Abey's Scheihallion recipe. Similar to the original but a bit stronger.

I now own an as yet unconverted fridge (thank you bloke on freecycle!)...

I know lagers are a bit different in the fermentation so have I got this plan right...?

Mash as usual
Pitch (Saflager S23) as per instructions
Ferment cool, I think I'll get around 13C.
--- Do I just ferment right out at this temp?
Bring up to 17/18C for a few days?
Bung it in my new fridge for a month
Bottle
--- Am I going to have enough viable yeast after a month in the fridge? Should I keep back some of the yeast cake and rouse it to dose the beer at bottling stage?
Condition
--- Should this be at around 13C as per the primary ferment?

Thanks!

 

[phettebs]

Honestly, I'd say 13C is a bit warm. I ferment my lagers (with liquid yeast) at around 8.8C. I then warm them up near the end of fermentation to 15.5 for a diacetyl rest. Then, you'll want to rack to secondary and get as close to 0C as you can. I'd say 1 month minimum. I'd try to go for two.

To be fair, I've never bottled a lager. I've only kegged. You don't need to use the same yeast at bottling as you did for fermenting. You should still have enough yeast in suspension to carbonate, especially if you do it at room temp, which I would. Remember, you are trying to carbonate the beer at this point, not ferment a clean lager.

Just my thoughts,
Baz

 

[calumscott]

Thanks Baz. :thumb:

I don't have the funds to convert my fridge yet so I'm a bit stuck on the fermentation temp control. Lagering is fine, the fridge will just get cranked to effing cold... Should be down around 0-2 degrees.

How long do you give for the diacetyl rest? Couple of days?

 

[phettebs]

Sorry, misread that then. Thought you had the fridge temp controlled.

I do the d-rest for 2-3 days is all.

 

[ScottM]

If you plan on using a huge starter then you could start it off around the fermenting temp (12 degrees with saflager I believe). If you don't plan on starting big then you will need to pitch at around 22 degrees and bring down to your fermenting temp over 48 hours (I messed up big time and ended up with mega ester).

3-4 weeks fermenting at 12 degrees saw my lager finished.

I then brought it up to room temp over 2 days, transferred to secondary and then moved to my fridge. I dropped the temperature approx 10 degrees every 24 hours (5 degrees per 12 hours) until it was as low as I could get it (3 degrees).

2 months lagering (I made mine 3 as I couldn't get it down to 0)

Bring into house for 48 hours, bottle, 14 days at room temp then dumped back in at 0 degrees for another month.

I'm currently sitting at the bottled "room temp" stage :)

 

[Jimmy321]

If you have not yet bought the yeast get Saflager W-34/70, I found it to clear and condition better but having said that I've only brewed two lagers.

 

[DirtyCaner]

Sounds like that will work fine mate.

Yes, there will be enough yeast to prime the bottles, just leave them in a warm place for 2 weeks. Then a further 6 weeks somewhere cold to condition. The extra wait is worth it.

DirtyC

 

[calumscott]

If you plan on using a huge starter then you could start it off around the fermenting temp (12 degrees with saflager I believe). If you don't plan on starting big then you will need to pitch at around 22 degrees and bring down to your fermenting temp over 48 hours (I messed up big time and ended up with mega ester).

Thanks Scott. Won't be going with the starter, just rehydrating and pitching then letting it cool off to fermentation temp. What was it that you screwed up to get the esters?

3-4 weeks fermenting at 12 degrees saw my lager finished.

I then brought it up to room temp over 2 days, transferred to secondary and then moved to my fridge. I dropped the temperature approx 10 degrees every 24 hours (5 degrees per 12 hours) until it was as low as I could get it (3 degrees).

Why the steps? Can't you just bung it in the fridge and get it cold? (Me=lazy...)

2 months lagering (I made mine 3 as I couldn't get it down to 0)

Bring into house for 48 hours, bottle, 14 days at room temp then dumped back in at 0 degrees for another month.

I'm currently sitting at the bottled "room temp" stage :)

Sounds like I should have it ready for the summer then. :thumb:

 

[calumscott]

Thanks again everyone.

I know it's not *quite* ideal but I think I've got just about enough control to make something decent for now until I finish the build.

:

 

[ScottM]

If you plan on using a huge starter then you could start it off around the fermenting temp (12 degrees with saflager I believe). If you don't plan on starting big then you will need to pitch at around 22 degrees and bring down to your fermenting temp over 48 hours (I messed up big time and ended up with mega ester).

Thanks Scott. Won't be going with the starter, just rehydrating and pitching then letting it cool off to fermentation temp. What was it that you screwed up to get the esters?

3 things in total but all said to be as bad as each other.

I under pitched
I used old yeast
I immediately put it in the loft (13 degrees)

I did pitch at 20 degrees but I moved it far too soon. It should be allowed to kick off at least a little bit and the temp should be gradually brought down. If there is no way to gradually bring the temp down (which I didn't have) then a day or 2 to let the yeast colonies grow is required.

3-4 weeks fermenting at 12 degrees saw my lager finished.

I then brought it up to room temp over 2 days, transferred to secondary and then moved to my fridge. I dropped the temperature approx 10 degrees every 24 hours (5 degrees per 12 hours) until it was as low as I could get it (3 degrees).

Why the steps? Can't you just bung it in the fridge and get it cold? (Me=lazy...)

Basically so that the yeast don't get distressed by the sudden temp change. We know they don't like that

2 months lagering (I made mine 3 as I couldn't get it down to 0)

Bring into house for 48 hours, bottle, 14 days at room temp then dumped back in at 0 degrees for another month.

I'm currently sitting at the bottled "room temp" stage :)

Sounds like I should have it ready for the summer then. :thumb:

I have a successful one in the bottle and my ester one just getting ready for the lagering phase. The later will be my summer drink (cerveza) but I reckon it'll be closer to a kopaberg cider lol.

 

[calumscott]

3 things in total but all said to be as bad as each other.

I under pitched
I used old yeast
I immediately put it in the loft (13 degrees)

I did pitch at 20 degrees but I moved it far too soon. It should be allowed to kick off at least a little bit and the temp should be gradually brought down. If there is no way to gradually bring the temp down (which I didn't have) then a day or 2 to let the yeast colonies grow is required.

Ah yes, I remember the thread now! So I've got fresh yeast, it'll go in rehydrated and it should cool reasonably slowly so I'm comfortable with that.

Why the steps? Can't you just bung it in the fridge and get it cold? (Me=lazy...)

Basically so that the yeast don't get distressed by the sudden temp change. We know they don't like that

But by then they're all done, won't be replicating so there's little risk of petite mutants to throw off-flavours? It shouldn't kill them...

...something else I'm missing maybe?

 

[ScottM]

3 things in total but all said to be as bad as each other.

I under pitched
I used old yeast
I immediately put it in the loft (13 degrees)

I did pitch at 20 degrees but I moved it far too soon. It should be allowed to kick off at least a little bit and the temp should be gradually brought down. If there is no way to gradually bring the temp down (which I didn't have) then a day or 2 to let the yeast colonies grow is required.

Ah yes, I remember the thread now! So I've got fresh yeast, it'll go in rehydrated and it should cool reasonably slowly so I'm comfortable with that.

Why the steps? Can't you just bung it in the fridge and get it cold? (Me=lazy...)

Basically so that the yeast don't get distressed by the sudden temp change. We know they don't like that

But by then they're all done, won't be replicating so there's little risk of petite mutants to throw off-flavours? It shouldn't kill them...

...something else I'm missing maybe?

Not entirely sure what the process is during the lagering. The rest time is said to be crucial and I presume it uses the yeast in some way so I don't think their job is finished with the fermenting.

 

[calumscott]

Not entirely sure what the process is during the lagering. The rest time is said to be crucial and I presume it uses the yeast in some way so I don't think their job is finished with the fermenting.

Certainly the diacetyl rest is supposed to be very important. Well I suppose I could do a three stage "get it to fridge"...

From house to passage to fridge on 1 to flat out fridge over three days...