I've come to the conclusion that carbonation is just an on-going process

[DCBC]

Fair point, and I think this is why my limited attempts to search for this haven't turned up very much!

 

[Scrattajack]

Graham Wheeler felt that it was unnecessary to prime homebrew, as the residual dextrins would be fermented out over time to provide the carbonation. The only reasons to prime would be if the beer had insufficient dextrins (i.e. made with a lot of sugar) or to speed up the process. Homebrewers have got into the habit of priming because, I guess, early kits called for a bag of sugar and through the manufacturer's optimism for when the beer is ready to drink. This has then been included in books as best practice.

Commercial brews also carry on over time. About a year ago, I bought some Lacons' Heritage range beers and at the time found them good but flat so left them in the cellar. Last weekend I opened a Yarmouth Strong and found it nicely carbonated, all in all, a lovely drop.

 

[moto748]

Some interesting points made here, thanks, guys. I'll respond to a few of them:

a) Let me say first of all, I don't see this as 'a big problem I have' which urgently needs solving. I saw it more as 'just one of those things'; and didn't apply anyway in 90% of the time when the beer was drunk quicker. But I wanted to check if it was a universal or commonplace thing to happen. And it seems to be pretty commonplace.

b) I am open to the possibility that I am bottling too early, even though FG readings look unchanging and correct. But I certainly don't go with this 2+2+2 malarkey. Maybe there's a fear at the back of my mind that if I delay too long bottling, priming just won't work? But for me, if a beer is pretty clear, tastes 'flat', and has a fixed FG of around 1010 or below, it's ready to bottle. I am a little reluctant to believe that leaving it in demi-johns for another week or two would be beneficial.

c) As I noted before, it seems altogether sensible to aim for a level of priming that gives correctly carbonated beer at 3 to 4 weeks not 10 weeks!

d) I don't think dry-hopping is relevant in my case. I don't do it often, but haven't had any problems on the occasions when I do do it.

e) I think of all the factors mentioned, far-and-away the most likely for me is temperature. My beer is stored on my kitchen floor. Hence, it is reasonably warm all year round. Would I be better off storing somewhere cooler? Very likely, but I don't have anywhere, apart from a small garden shed that, for a variety of reasons, I don't wish to use.

f) As for yeasts, well, some of that discussion went a bit over my head but I don't use anything obscure, mostly US-05 MJ M42, Lallamand Verdant, S-04 even.

 

[moto748]

...

b) if I intend to age the beers. I have split a batch with the drink soon beers having more priming sugar than the drink later beers. This helps stop over carbing on beers kept for longer. I put 0-3 black dots on the beer cap to indicate which order to drink them in.

Now that is an interesting idea I hadn't considered! Good thinking, that man!

 

[Dorst]

Diastaticus is a bit of a hard subject to unpack in a forum post. I really like Escarpment Labs, a yeast lab, videos on these topics.

In this video they look at the topic (which became relevant when beer cans started to explode last year in the USA:

 

[DavidDetroit]

So I guess what I'm saying is, is this other posters' experience too?

No, I haven't had that problem, even 18 months out. I have over-primed but they all reacted the same and got no worse after a period of time.
I could see a change in storage (colder to warmer) finishing the bottle conditioning making it appear there's endless fermentation.
My only gushers came about when I put fruit in the beer and then didn't allow it to finish in the primary.
My darker, high-ABV beers take forever to carbonate but only to the point where they should be.
I'm deathly afraid of diastaticus and the fact that I've read it's hard to eliminate.

 

[An Ankoù]

The yeast, guys, it is the yeast. I have brewed strong ale with S-33 yeast, and a year later it still had the correct carbonation. I don't have a problem with Belgian beer yeasts either, be it diastatic versions (which consume all sugars, also very complex ones) or non-diastatic. They ferment out, which could need from 2 to 4 weeks.

But going on about problems with yeasts and bottle bombs, it seems that certain English strains, especially low attenuation and historic, are notorious for this. E.g. MJ M15, but I am certain I have also seen complaints about equivalent strains from other suppliers. I once had a problem with this one too.

One solution is to use a bottling yeast. I use CBC-1, and it seems to do its work. Not only does it carbonate, but it also kills other yeasts. I once brewed a beer with Rochefort yeast from the bottle, and that one wouldn't ferment out. But after bottling with CBC-1, I did not have any problems.

I hadn't thought of using "killer yeasts". I sometimes use Safale F-2 for bottling. I guess CBC-1 is something entirely different.

 

[Dorst]

No, I haven't had that problem, even 18 months out. I have over-primed but they all reacted the same and got no worse after a period of time.
I could see a change in storage (colder to warmer) finishing the bottle conditioning making it appear there's endless fermentation.
My only gushers came about when I put fruit in the beer and then didn't allow it to finish in the primary.
My darker, high-ABV beers take forever to carbonate but only to the point where they should be.
I'm deathly afraid of diastaticus and the fact that I've read it's hard to eliminate.

I ferment in stainless steel and use bacteria/brettanomyces/diastaticus in the same fermenters as I ferment other beers in. I do clean a bit more thorough after this happens though - but nothing too crazy. I only had one cross contamination once and that was when I did not clean thoroughly enough. If you have plastic equipment it might be more tricky.

Commercial breweries have very small time between their fermenters being emptied and being filled, where I normally have weeks of empty fermenters. All of these factors play a role - but I would not "fear" certain yeast.. Just be aware of them.

 

[moto748]

I think occasions when I'm planning on drinking beers that are much more than five or six weeks old are going to be pretty few and far between; I don't brew big batches, normally 10 or 15 litres at a time. So as I see it, I need to aim for a level of priming that hits that 'sweet spot'. I do find myself slowly, with experience, reducing the amount of priming I use in bitters. But stouts seems a little harder to pigeon-hole; the level that seems correct for Irish stout may not work well with oatmeal stout, etc.

 

[DavidDetroit]

All of these factors play a role - but I would not "fear" certain yeast.. Just be aware of them.

Thanks. I do plastic fermenters and bottle.
I'm sure most of my reticence is due to lack of knowledge.

 

[moto748]

You clearly know a lot more about brewing than I do, David!

It's not so much that I'm 'deathly afraid of diastaticus', more that I don't really know what it is.

And am far from sure that I want to know!

 

[Clint]

Regards to beers taking say,longer than (average)initial fermentation of around 2 weeks at optimal temp. again let's say 18-22c...why would they? The produced c02 is captive..should this help? I'm often trying beers a week or so after bottling and they've got carbonation.

 

[DavidDetroit]

diastaticus

I wouldn't hang my own hat on anything more than "mostly knowing the basics." I stumbled across that term perusing the forums.
You'd only need to know about it if you're going to use it.

 

[Sadfield]

You'd only need to know about it if you're going to use it.

How many people know they are using it though? Diastatic strains have been sold for years without clear indication. I've a packet of Safale BE-134 in the fridge that doesn't mention it on the packet.

As Dorst says, nothing to fear. And only really requires extending the contact time with most cleaners and sanitisers.

 

[DavidDetroit]

How many people know they are using it though? Diastatic strains have been sold for years without clear indication. I've a packet of Safale BE-134 in the fridge that doesn't mention it on the packet.

Good question. Mentioning here that the variant should be checked for is a start.
As a beginner, I didn't know what I didn't know and got lucky in that I didn't brew anything requiring the variant.

 

[An Ankoù]

How many people know they are using it though? Diastatic strains have been sold for years without clear indication. I've a packet of Safale BE-134 in the fridge that doesn't mention it on the packet.

As Dorst says, nothing to fear. And only really requires extending the contact time with most cleaners and sanitisers.

Yeasts form biofilms, some more than others. SInce I only rinse my bottles (well) and then put a dose of Na2S2O5 soln in there and cap with an old cap, I'm beginning to wonder whether I shouldn't be more careful. Some of my lagers, a year old, have an obvious deposit at the bottom which won't shift by rinsing so I bleach them, not because I'm worried about contamination, but because of the nucleation that the deposit would cause. But what if there are films we can't see? (Sounds like a conspracy theory.) I'm coming round, more and more to considering Cthon's "killer yeast".

 

[Sadfield]

Yeasts form biofilms, some more than others. SInce I only rinse my bottles (well) and then put a dose of Na2S2O5 soln in there and cap with an old cap, I'm beginning to wonder whether I shouldn't be more careful. Some of my lagers, a year old, have an obvious deposit at the bottom which won't shift by rinsing so I bleach them, not because I'm worried about contamination, but because of the nucleation that the deposit would cause. But what if there are films we can't see? (Sounds like a conspracy theory.) I'm coming round, more and more to considering Cthon's "killer yeast".

The problem there is that, for example, MJ French Saison is var. diastatic, but Killer Factor neutral and doesn't have the receptor for the killer toxin. So, if you have biofilm not visible to the naked eye and you've used a diastatic strain, then killer yeast won't help in that scenario. A lot of straight Saccharomyces strains are sensitive though. What happens if the bottle is contaminated with the killer bottling yeast and you don't use it every time?

A good soak in oxy when the empties have built up and then Starsan on bottling day works for me. IIRC FiveStar claim Starsan works regardless of biofilm.

 

[foxy]

I have read of those who rinse the bottle straight away after emptying, it doesn't remove everything. I have rinsed bottles straight after emptying and then use an alkaline scrubber (sodium perborate) and get a brown scum on the foam. So even though it looks clean after a rinse it really isn't.

 

[foxy]

I prime by injecting a measured sugar solution into each bottle. As for fermentation being finished, I seldom bottle before FG is above 1010 and with no sign of further fermentation. Do I take it from your responses that you don't find the same?

Temperature of the beer at bottling matters a lot, to much sugar and you will have gushers just through overcarbing. Bulk priming is a simple way to go but it is up to the individual how they prefer to prime.
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Priming_Bottled_Beer

 

[RoomWithABrew]

@An Ankoù
I find that those English ale yeasts keep going and going. They are designed for cask ales and rapid consumption. A recent ale using wyeast 1099 had a gravity of 1.002 at the end of the barrel. But was stable spontaneously dropping clear when it was transferred to barrel. It didn't taste bone dry though.