I've come to the conclusion that carbonation is just an on-going process

[moto748]

In bottled beers, at least. I present as evidence the following:

a) On the very rare occasions where I've ever opened a bottle more than six months old, say, it has inevitably been a bottle-bomb. And, more importantly,

b) I just cracked an odd bottle I had left of oatmeal stout. I swapped one of them with @pilgrimhudd way back when, and frankly it was pretty flat at the time. Now <consults notes> 68 days after bottling, it's bloody perfect!

It's not the first time I've encountered similar. I keep a close record of the amount of priming I use on each brew. Which, eventually, should guide me to the optimum amount for regularly-brewed beers, based on them being about right at, say, three to four weeks.

I might add that I've gathered that these issues may matter less with high-strength beers, but personally I seldom brew anything much over 5%.

So I guess what I'm saying is, is this other posters' experience too? Or should I be looking at my process? To be clear, I'm not worried about it, but would be interested to hear what others thought.

 

[foxy]

In bottled beers, at least. I present as evidence the following:

a) On the very rare occasions where I've ever opened a bottle more than six months old, say, it has inevitably been a bottle-bomb. And, more importantly,

b) I just cracked an odd bottle I had left of oatmeal stout. I swapped one of them with @pilgrimhudd way back when, and frankly it was pretty flat at the time. Now <consults notes> 68 days after bottling, it's bloody perfect!

It's not the first time I've encountered similar. I keep a close record of the amount of priming I use on each brew. Which, eventually, should guide me to the optimum amount for regularly-brewed beers, based on them being about right at, say, three to four weeks.

I might add that I've gathered that these issues may matter less with high-strength beers, but personally I seldom brew anything much over 5%.

So I guess what I'm saying is, is this other posters' experience too? Or should I be looking at my process? To be clear, I'm not worried about it, but would be interested to hear what others thought.

How do you prime and do you take into account bottling temperature?

 

[sifty]

And is fermentation complete when you bottle...?

 

[moto748]

I prime by injecting a measured sugar solution into each bottle. As for fermentation being finished, I seldom bottle before FG is above 1010 and with no sign of further fermentation. Do I take it from your responses that you don't find the same?

 

[dad_of_jon]

I bottle often before 1010 it all depends on the brew of course I've bottled at 1020 for a quad or 1003 for a saison. I also bottle at 2-3 weeks dependent on brew strength if the airlock chambers are even. I then adjust the amount of priming sugar depending on:

a) if the FG is too high for the style (unfinished fermentation)
b) if I intend to age the beers. I have split a batch with the drink soon beers having more priming sugar than the drink later beers. This helps stop over carbing on beers kept for longer. I put 0-3 black dots on the beer cap to indicate which order to drink them in.

 

[dmtaylor]

I have bottled over 160 batches since 1999. Overcarbonation happens occasionally, but not very often anymore. The best advice I can give you: wait until you are 100% sure fermentation is 100% complete. Then, wait another 4-5 days before bottling anyway. This will resolve 90% of potential problems.

 

[Clint]

I bottle,mostly and bulk prime with a sugar solution. I used to just syphon the beer from the fv into the bottling bucket then bottle. After the odd occasion on what seemed like uneven carbonation I now gently stir.
One issue I could possibly see with bottling especially if you have lots of bottles stored in less than ideal places (like me!) ,is keeping them clean and indeed cleaning them properly!
I've had them in bleach soak,oxi soak,scrubbed them to death inside and out and still found some crappy bits stuck. This will cause infections some of which will be gushers. Bottling is definitely a love/hate thing.

 

[Ben034]

I prime by injecting a measured sugar solution into each bottle. As for fermentation being finished, I seldom bottle before FG is above 1010 and with no sign of further fermentation. Do I take it from your responses that you don't find the same?

I think I would agree that bottles can often carry on carbonating if stored for long periods. It depends on the yeast used, some are famous for gradual fermentation of previously unfermented sugars. Also, storage temperature. Over the summer, where I can't store beers cold, there's definitely some increased carbonation.

 

[Spratt]

If you're heavy on the dry hopping side of things, that might explain your bottle bombs

https://arstechnica.com/science/201...ppy-beer-taste-without-the-exploding-bottles/
Shellhammer's work is given a bit more detail here

https://brulosophy.com/2019/02/21/t...-of-dry-hopping-lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/

 

[Sandimas]

I really recognise this, I get this regularly (every year but not all the time) and have done close on to 250 brews, so let me add my thoughts to the discussion.

• First, I absolutely check that fermentation is finished: I don't follow the 2+2+2 rule, quite often my beers are still in the FV after 21 or even 28 days.
• I also am extremely careful about cleaning and sanitising, so it's not infections.
• All yeasts are different, some are done in 2-3 days, some take much, much longer, I've had one take 25 days.
• Some of the MJ yeasts in particular have a very long ferment tail to completion.
• Some yeasts pause and re-start.

But the single thing that most affects this is bottle storage temperature post-conditioing. I store mine in the garage, which is cold in winter and hot in summer. In winter I never get this problem, it's always in summer when it heats up. Some brews seem to re-start fermenting in the bottle. There appears to be no rhyme nor reason to it, although I have noticed that darker beers are more susceptible to this. I've got 2 year old bottles of beer (strong dark Belgian ales) that have been stored in the fridge the whole time and none of them have ever foamed.

Nowadays I bring the whole stash into the house in mi-summer (July) as although hot, the house is cooler than the garage. This has significantly reduced the number of foamers I get, although I still get some.

What temperature are your bottles stored at, and is it consistent? I've put a max/min thermometer next to mine in the garage and I'm amazed at some of the highs in there, even in autumn/spring.

 

[An Ankoù]

I've got bottles a year old and they're not overcarbonated. On the other hand, nearly all the high FG 1010+ beers I've made have become unstable after 3-6 months. I had a batch of Five Points which finished at 1014 and stayed there for a week, even after racking the beer into a secondary fermenter, and, lo and behold, they're like Versuvius. I cracked the crown corks open to let gas and foam out and crimped them back down again after an hour. Haven't tried them yet.
I suppose the reason I haven't had this problem before is that I don't like residual sweetness in my beer and I normally ferment down to 1006 or even 1004.

 

[Dorst]

Having bottle bombs over longer time would indicate that something is still breaking down sugars in your bottle of beer after bottling.

An obvious candidate as mentioned before is bottling too early. In this case there is still residual sugars that will ferment over time and lead to an overcarbed beer. Another obvious one is adding too much priming sugars to the bottle, although this should result in overcarbonation earlier in time and would show earlier.

Two other options I have not seen discussed are diastaticus and wild yeast. A diastaticus is a yeast that has the STA1 gene which basically breaks down dextrins and starches into fermentable sugars over time. A popular example of such a yeast is Belle Saison but there are plenty others (too many to list in fact). The issue with a diastaticus is that, like wild yeast, can stick around in your fermenter. Many commercial breweries will therefore avoid these strains.

Lastly it might be that you picked up a wild yeast or bacterial infection. They tend to be able to break down sugars that normal yeasts can not but tend to work slower. Like diastaticus they tend to stick around in your fermenter. Do you notice that the flavour shifts a lot over time?

In any case it would not hurt cleaning your fermenter and bottling equipment just in case.

 

[Cwrw666]

I get this in summer sometimes - not exactly bottle bombs, just a bit too foamy for my liking.
Doesn't happen often, probably because I get through my beer too quickly.
I've always assumed it's a secondary fermentation thing due to unfermentable sugars degrading so that they start feeding the yeast.

 

[DCBC]

Do you have hard water @moto748 and do you adjust your water to bring it into the optimum pH range for the style?

I had a massive decrease in bottle bombs as soon as I started really paying attention to mash pH. I live in a very hard water area and before I started acidifying my strike water I was consistently finishing a bit high on FG and an extra week in the fermenter made no difference. But I think those 2-3 extra points of gravity are probably convertible by the yeast over the long term, resulting in extra carbonation in the bottles. I think that by giving my yeast wort which is pretty much optimal in terms of fermentability it gets more of its business finished in the couple of weeks in the fermenter and there is much less potential sugar which can be converted later. The only bottle bombs I have had recently (touch wood as I have several batches conditioning at the moment!) are from hop creep.

 

[chthon]

The yeast, guys, it is the yeast. I have brewed strong ale with S-33 yeast, and a year later it still had the correct carbonation. I don't have a problem with Belgian beer yeasts either, be it diastatic versions (which consume all sugars, also very complex ones) or non-diastatic. They ferment out, which could need from 2 to 4 weeks.

But going on about problems with yeasts and bottle bombs, it seems that certain English strains, especially low attenuation and historic, are notorious for this. E.g. MJ M15, but I am certain I have also seen complaints about equivalent strains from other suppliers. I once had a problem with this one too.

One solution is to use a bottling yeast. I use CBC-1, and it seems to do its work. Not only does it carbonate, but it also kills other yeasts. I once brewed a beer with Rochefort yeast from the bottle, and that one wouldn't ferment out. But after bottling with CBC-1, I did not have any problems.

 

[Dorst]

The yeast, guys, it is the yeast. I have brewed strong ale with S-33 yeast, and a year later it still had the correct carbonation. I don't have a problem with Belgian beer yeasts either, be it diastatic versions (which consume all sugars, also very complex ones) or non-diastatic. They ferment out, which could need from 2 to 4 weeks.

But going on about problems with yeasts and bottle bombs, it seems that certain English strains, especially low attenuation and historic, are notorious for this. E.g. MJ M15, but I am certain I have also seen complaints about equivalent strains from other suppliers. I once had a problem with this one too.

One solution is to use a bottling yeast. I use CBC-1, and it seems to do its work. Not only does it carbonate, but it also kills other yeasts. I once brewed a beer with Rochefort yeast from the bottle, and that one wouldn't ferment out. But after bottling with CBC-1, I did not have any problems.

I can't find any sources that show that Fermentis SafAle S-33 is a diastaticus. Their BE-134 strain is one of the few ones that is confirmed.

Bottling with a killer-yeast like CBC-1 will indeed fix this problem but adding yeast while bottling sounds like a chore. I would start with really thoroughly cleaning your fermenter and bottling equipment (including taps, gaskets, connectors). And check any future yeasts for diastaticus (it's mentioned by most manufacturers on their website).

 

[chthon]

I can't find any sources that show that Fermentis SafAle S-33 is a diastaticus. Their BE-134 strain is one of the few ones that is confirmed.

Bottling with a killer-yeast like CBC-1 will indeed fix this problem but adding yeast while bottling sounds like a chore. I would start with really thoroughly cleaning your fermenter and bottling equipment (including taps, gaskets, connectors). And check any future yeasts for diastaticus (it's mentioned by most manufacturers on their website).

Well, my fault. S-33 has a low attenuation, so many remaining sugars. But once it is done, it is done. That is what I meant to say, no further ongoing things.

But these British strains are also not diastatic, but seem to go in lower gear, not completely stopping. Measuring FG over a couple of days (and certainly with the coarse things that hydrometers are) doesn't show any change. But once bottled, it continues very slowly. It is with M15 that I also once had a problem (gushers, since I bottle in Belgian bottles. I also checked a whole lot of things, added more cleaning and so on, but my experience with other beers and yeasts led me to believe there was nothing wrong in that respect. Especially since the original beer always tasted fine, just too much carbonation.

 

[Dorst]

Well, my fault. S-33 has a low attenuation, so many remaining sugars. But once it is done, it is done. That is what I meant to say, no further ongoing things.

But these British strains are also not diastatic, but seem to go in lower gear, not completely stopping. Measuring FG over a couple of days (and certainly with the coarse things that hydrometers are) doesn't show any change. But once bottled, it continues very slowly. It is with M15 that I also once had a problem (gushers, since I bottle in Belgian bottles. I also checked a whole lot of things, added more cleaning and so on, but my experience with other beers and yeasts led me to believe there was nothing wrong in that respect. Especially since the original beer always tasted fine, just too much carbonation.

I think the beers that you brew with yeasts that have low attenuation are most at risk from a diastaticus.

Example:
- I brew a Saison with BE-134 or Belle Saison, yeast with a diastaticus. The yeast ferments down to almost 1.000 so there are no worries about bottle bombs.
- My next brew is a Belgian ale with S-33. It's a big beer with a lot of residual sugars. The beer is fermented in the same fermenter and the diastaticus (STA-1) is still present in very low quantities. I bottle the beer after 3 weeks with a FG of 1.018 or higher, but the diastaticus will take down the beer down to close to 1.000..

You can imagine that these situations are quite scary. I know some commercial breweries had these issues in the past with gushers or worse.

 

[DCBC]

I think the beers that you brew with yeasts that have low attenuation are most at risk from a diastaticus.

Example:
- I brew a Saison with BE-134 or Belle Saison, yeast with a diastaticus. The yeast ferments down to almost 1.000 so there are no worries about bottle bombs.
- My next brew is a Belgian ale with S-33. It's a big beer with a lot of residual sugars. The beer is fermented in the same fermenter and the diastaticus (STA-1) is still present in very low quantities. I bottle the beer after 3 weeks with a FG of 1.018 or higher, but the diastaticus will take down the beer down to close to 1.000..

You can imagine that these situations are quite scary. I know some commercial breweries had these issues in the past with gushers or worse.

In this scenario, I assume it's possible to calculate the amount of residual sugar as compared to bottling sugar and use less/no bottling sugar at all? I've always wondered this but I'm not sure there is an accepted calculation.

 

[Dorst]

In this scenario, I assume it's possible to calculate the amount of residual sugar as compared to bottling sugar and use less/no bottling sugar at all? I've always wondered this but I'm not sure there is an accepted calculation.

That's a good question. I think it's really complex to calculate since the STA1 conversion of starches and dextrines to simpler sugars is not fully linear, neither does it break down everything at the same pace. Another issue with this calculations is that you would need to wait to drink your beer until the STA1 is done breaking down enough sugars.