Is this normal?

[kenstel]

Today I did my first AG kit.

The instructions were non-existent, just a list of times, temperatures etc. That led to me starting a thread asking for info about using the Irish Moss that was supplied.

Unfortunately, the volume in the pot was so low, I couldn't siphon and had to pour everything as it was into the fermenter.

The kit was supposed to make 4.5L but after the 90 minute boil as gently as I could (I had to check the temperature several times to check it was actually 100 degrees because there was so little movement on the surface) what I had eventually tipped into the fermenter was about 2 litres. The gravity was easy high. Deciding that 2 litres wasn't worth the effort, I added boiled water to 4.5L and the gravity much closer to the specified. Didn't like doing but the boil of was excessive.

However 2 hours after pitching the yeast (which didn't dissolve very easily) there seems to be a LOT of sediment.

You can see there's about 2 litres of sediment. Is that normal? How on earth am I going to get a reasonable amount of beer or off it?

 

[kenstel]

Through good news is that's there's already fermenting activity.

 

[foxy]

Well, what you are supposed to know is how much liquor you are going to lose to grain absorption and the loss you are going to have during a boil and finally your loss to trub. So the total of water needed will be 4.5 litres into the fermenter plus loss to grain plus loss to boiling plus loss to trub.
Looks like you have close to 1.75 -2 litres of trub there. The reason you have so much trub is the 90minute boil, the longer the boil the more precipitation and coagulation of unwanted proteins. You have to leave the trub in the kettle and you will get a cleaner clearer beer. Now you will get those who will argue they get a clear beer fermenting on the trub and they will. Yeast produces what is known as 'floculins' which stick the yeast cells together, so the problem is unwanted lipids, proteins, tannin material spent hops, and other undesirable crap stick to the yeast.
The reason you got off to a good start is you have all the cold break in your fermenter. Cold break contains fatty acids that are beneficial to yeast. But do some reading before you attempt another all-grain brew.

 

[MashBag]

As a ratio that is a lot of trub @foxy

 

[foxy]

As a ratio that is a lot of trub @foxy

It is, but it was concentrated wort. I can't see how a 90-minute boil was needed unless it was a floor-malted Bohemian Pilsner malt.

 

[Nicks90]

That is a lot of trub, but you will be surprised how much it compacts down during fermentation

 

[MashBag]

Righto. Missed that. That is a cloudy layer settling. Phew.

I was " I don't care how long foxy boils it for that would be about 10l in 25l "

 

[dlowe1992]

I did a 1 gallon brew a while back where, for reasons I won’t go into, I ended up with all the trub in the FV. You’ll be amazed how much it settles out and compacts down

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Followed here from your other thread.
Reckon you'll get 4 litres of beer or more after ferment and settling.
Let it brew.

 

[kenstel]

Thanks for your replies.
It wasn't possible to leave the trub in the kettle because it was so shallow my siphon wouldn't work - small volume of liquid, wide pan. I tried decanting it with a cup but when I realised that I'd only end up with a litre or 2 of wort, and how long it would take, and that I wouldn't be able to keep it clear any way. I tipped it all in.

There were minimal information with the grain - batch volume of 4.5L, boil volume of 5.2L, efficiency of 78%. Mash volume 2.7L, sparge until boil volume obtained (which I did).

There were 5.2L when I started the boil which was done at the minimum heat input to maintain 100 degrees C.

The good news is its fermenting well, and the trub has compacted. The photo isn't as clear as the first as I didn't want to move the fermenter too much.

There are a couple of high spots but it's much lower generally. Thankfully. The beer is described as a dark pilsner.

 

[kenstel]

It's quite possible I misinterpreted or otherwise made a mistake with the scant instructions just a list of figures really. However it still seems like a lot of trub. Obviously I'm not going to get 4.5L out of it unless I include the trub, more likely 4L.

 

[kenstel]

Thanks Roomy, nice of you too follow here. Yes, 4L give or take.

I must admit when I saw tht trub, I was tempted to tip it down the drain, but I thought even if it turned out dreadful, there was something to learn from it.

 

[kenstel]

You can see the gas pressure in the bubbler. For a small volume, it's bubbling well.

 

[dlowe1992]

Looks good.

You could try putting the recipe into Brewfath. Free to download and use and, in this case, it will help you work out how much water you need to start with to en ud with 4.5L.
If you have a wide shallow pot I'd guess you're losing a lot to boil off, possibly as much as 2 litres over that length of boil. Then a litre or so of trub loss in the fermentor. probably need to be starting with 8 litres or so.

I'd also say you could safely knock that boil down to 60 mins, but I'm no expert and certainly not in lagers, so listen to wiser heads before doing that

 

[kenstel]

I think the boil lost was about 3 L, maybe slightly more. By topping up to the 4.5L, the gravity came down to expected. When I put the original wort in the FV, the OG was 1.08, it was supposed to be 1.044. After diluting, the OG was 1.042.

Brew father might be a good idea. I'm just learning how to use it, so it might suggest a bigger start volume. Thing is, I bought a kit, so I expect someone else to have done that.

The 90 minute boil did seem excessive, but it's a dark pilsner type, which foxy suggested from the boil length, so maybe that boil is typical for that style. I don't know. It had better taste good! It's starting to look the part though.

 

[foxy]

I think the boil lost was about 3 L, maybe slightly more. By topping up to the 4.5L, the gravity came down to expected. When I put the original wort in the FV, the OG was 1.08, it was supposed to be 1.044. After diluting, the OG was 1.042.

Brew father might be a good idea. I'm just learning how to use it, so it might suggest a bigger start volume. Thing is, I bought a kit, so I expect someone else to have done that.

The 90 minute boil did seem excessive, but it's a dark pilsner type, which foxy suggested from the boil length, so maybe that boil is typical for that style. I don't know. It had better taste good! It's starting to look the part though.

Boil loss was nowhere near enough for a 90-minute boil it should be double that dependent of course on the diameter of the kettle. If yours is 35 to 38 cm then an expected loss to boil would be 6 litres if it is a bigger diameter then up to 9 litres.
A simmer is no good, the surface tension has to be broken with a vigorous boil letting the steam carry off all the volatiles, especially with a pilsner malt which has more SMM than other malts.

Brew Father as well as any other app is only as good as the information you feed into it. You have to know what your boil-off rate is per hour, Boil some water vigorously for half an hour and measure the water quantity at ambient temperature before and after.
Grain absorption loss start with the rule of thumb loss of 1 litre to 1 kg of grain until you work your own out.
Loss to trub is what you can't remove from the kettle without letting trub get into the fermenter. Then you can our the trub into a jug place the jug in the fridge and get the remaining wort from that as the trub settles.

90 minutes could be over the top SMM has a half-life span of 37 minutes in the boil so 75minutes would cover it and hopefully a vigorous ferment will scrub enough of the remaining DMS from the wort.
The best thing about mistakes is they are the best way to learn, often expensive but the best way.
Hope your next brew goes better.

 

[kenstel]

Boil loss was nowhere near enough for a 90-minute boil it should be double that dependent of course on the diameter of the kettle. If yours is 35 to 38 cm then an expected loss to boil would be 6 litres if it is a bigger diameter then up to 9 litres.

Hmmm. I don't understand how I can expect to lose 6L in boil off, when I started out with only 5.2L.

I was trying to make beer, not dried, baked on malt and a burned out pot. Or maybe I misunderstand you?

My liquid losses were about 60% (3/5.2). The figures I see for evaporation are between 6-10%. Crisp the maltsters advise 60 minutes boil @6% evaporation to evaporate DMS, so I'm not sure why you say my losses weren't high enough. I had hardly and bloody wort left, how can that not be enough?

Taking your recommendation of 6L, which is unachievable in this case, even for a 23L brew, it comes out at 26%,which is far higher than any other figure I've seen. On a domestic setup, dealing with that much steam and condensation would be difficult.

However, my 60% loss far exceeds your 26% recommended loss, unless you're talking about a batch smaller than 23L. A 6L loss from 10L would give the same 60% loss that I experienced. The kit supplier suggested a FV volume of 4.5L from a boil volume of 5.2L. That's about 13%, which is again, much less than the 60% I experienced

In terms of the boil length, 90 minutes was what was recommended. In future, I might deviate from that, but I assumed that the supplier knew what they were talking about when they recommended that duration.

I know the are many people out there who boil with a lid on to minimise evaporation, and there's others who boil as hard as the can and refill the kettle mid boil. I don't know who is right and who isn't.

The best thing about mistakes is they are the best way to learn, often expensive but the best way.
Hope your next brew goes better.

I'm not sure I made any significant mistakes, but if anyone can point any out, I'll gladly listen.

I followed the instructions as best I could. I could have poured the wort into a narrower vessel to make the wort deeper, that would have allowed the siphon to work. But I didn't have anything to hand that was clean and big enough. I could have topped up the water level and allowed the trub to settle to achieve a deeper wort.

The problem was lack of volume of wort because of the evaporation, and I did what I could to minimise that, short of using a lid. Introducing a narrower vessel or more liquid simply tackles the difficulty of siphoning because of the evaporation.

However, thanks for the good wishes for my next brew, although I don't think this one was a disaster, time will tell.

As for my next brew, it might be Friday. That's another stove top 5L kit, Irish Stout from another supplier. Their boil volume is 5.4L, and FV volume of 5L, so a boil loss of just over 7%. I'm not sure how I'll achieve that, especially with a "vigorous boil" but where's there a will, there's a way.

 

[foxy]

Hmmm. I don't understand how I can expect to lose 6L in boil off, when I started out with only 5.2L.

I was trying to make beer, not dried, baked on malt and a burned out pot. Or maybe I misunderstand you?

My liquid losses were about 60% (3/5.2). The figures I see for evaporation are between 6-10%. Crisp the maltsters advise 60 minutes boil @6% evaporation to evaporate DMS, so I'm not sure why you say my losses weren't high enough. I had hardly and bloody wort left, how can that not be enough?

Taking your recommendation of 6L, which is unachievable in this case, even for a 23L brew, it comes out at 26%,which is far higher than any other figure I've seen. On a domestic setup, dealing with that much steam and condensation would be difficult.

However, my 60% loss far exceeds your 26% recommended loss, unless you're talking about a batch smaller than 23L. A 6L loss from 10L would give the same 60% loss that I experienced. The kit supplier suggested a FV volume of 4.5L from a boil volume of 5.2L. That's about 13%, which is again, much less than the 60% I experienced

In terms of the boil length, 90 minutes was what was recommended. In future, I might deviate from that, but I assumed that the supplier knew what they were talking about when they recommended that duration.

I know the are many people out there who boil with a lid on to minimise evaporation, and there's others who boil as hard as the can and refill the kettle mid boil. I don't know who is right and who isn't.



I'm not sure I made any significant mistakes, but if anyone can point any out, I'll gladly listen.

I followed the instructions as best I could. I could have poured the wort into a narrower vessel to make the wort deeper, that would have allowed the siphon to work. But I didn't have anything to hand that was clean and big enough. I could have topped up the water level and allowed the trub to settle to achieve a deeper wort.

The problem was lack of volume of wort because of the evaporation, and I did what I could to minimise that, short of using a lid. Introducing a narrower vessel or more liquid simply tackles the difficulty of siphoning because of the evaporation.

However, thanks for the good wishes for my next brew, although I don't think this one was a disaster, time will tell.

As for my next brew, it might be Friday. That's another stove top 5L kit, Irish Stout from another supplier. Their boil volume is 5.4L, and FV volume of 5L, so a boil loss of just over 7%. I'm not sure how I'll achieve that, especially with a "vigorous boil" but where's there a will, there's a way.

Yes, I should have put down a percentage, sorry my mind was working on a 21 litre to fermenter brew.

Well, those who are topping up their boil haven't got the stats right for the estimated loss to the kettle, those who boil with the lid on aren't releasing the volatiles, one of the reasons for the boil. ( Dissipation of volatiles in the wort (mainly s-methyl methionine)

When reading Crisp Maltsters keep in mind that they are advising commercial brewers, not home brewers. 7-8% for a commercial brewery is right, 13 to 15% on a homebrew scale. Pot diameter dependent.

What the instructions say is only a guide, they don't know each customer's evaporation rate, and they would expect you to know what your losses are. The start of the boil volume is expected wort to fermenter + loss to evaporation + loss to kettle trub.
4.5 litres + 3 litres + ? volume left in kettle.

How you lost 60% to evaporation? I can only suggest 2 things, 1. You are using a large-diameter pot. 2. Your calculations were out